High turnover rates at fencing clubs

[Hauptman]

I think there is a basic underlying premise that is missing here, and that is that people don't really know what they will enjoy until they try it.

It is perfectly normal for people, after having a basic introduction, to make a reasoned judgement that "this just isn't for me". Haven't you people ever been on a first date?!

Obviously, there are numerous ways to improve levels of enjoyment and minimize attrition, but a certain amount of attrition at the beginner level is perfectly normal and unavoidable.

I worry more about people who spend a significant time in a sport, over years, and then give it up. There is certainly something that can and should be addressed.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I'm not really concerned with the 6 month retention rate.

What about the 5 year retention rate?

Generally (with exceptions, of course), those who do it for 5 years or more are either A) Recreational and satisfied or B) Competitive with success + the resources for continued success.

But in the middle there, is the competitive fencer who doesnt have the resources to keep on keepin on. Major drop-out factor there. After all, who wants to suck?

[Nolano]

I've seen the high turnover rate in my club, as well.

While, on good nights, we might have as many as 30 fencers, we only have maybe 15 who come regularly. Just recently there was a new girl who I thought would really stick it out, but she stopped going, and after I went to all the trouble of trying to teach her something.

She did express some dissatisfaction at not being able to just fence, and I probably didn't tell her enough about how you need to learn the basics before they just let you loose fencing...

[KD5MDK]

So you missed out on dates?

How long did she attend without being able to bout?

[fatfencer]

That's all this thread has been. 3 pages of negativity. Fencing isn't this or that. It's not fun at first. Fencing is hard. Bull****.

If you have high attrition rates its because:

1) You haven't thought out how a beginners class can be exciting, fun, gregarious and full of activities that teach, in a fun way, fencing related skills.

2) People teaching beginners classes should be the MOST qualified fencing instructor in the room, USUALLY, unless they are boring as hell. Boring people should not teach beginners. Ther is no such thing as a born fencer. Fencers are made from VERY RAW material.

3) Smiling is infectious. Make people laugh and they will come back.

4) Cycle your beginners training to avoid undue fatigue. When the fun outweighs the pain they come back. When the beginners start to enjoy the pain and see it as a sign of a learning process then guess what?? They aren't beginners anymore they are CLUB MEMBERS.

5) Memberships have their privileges... AND RESPONSIBILITIES. When my old TKD master used to have a very large party when the beginners class was over. We'd have a graduation ceremony of sorts and give them warmups, very nice, expensive looking warmups. He'd make a very big deal about helping you put it on. He'd adjust it, zip it up for you. He'd even make all the senior black belts congratulate them, welcome them, shake their hand, etc.

On the flip side he'd call each of them in and have a private conversation and give them a task that they were to perform on a weekly basis. Gives them a sense of belonging.

When the beginners would be around for a year or two they would get a 2nd, more exotic, better looking warmup, same treatment as above. It further cements their entrance into the fold. Makes them care more.

Your 3rd set came after your black belt test... IF you passed. VERY nice warmups with incredible graphics.

The club is a direct reflection of the mood and method of thinking of those who run it.

Clubs walk a tightrope between the cult of personality (coaches) and a family-like, fun, environment. Coaches need to get all the respect and cooperation they deserve... and they ALWAYS do.

Fatfencer

[Nolano]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

So you missed out on dates?

Ah, how you have the ability to see right to the heart of an issue....

To be serious, though...

How long did she attend without being able to bout?

It was about 3 weeks of twice a week, I think. My club is a little slow to start people off in bouting, but it even took a little longer for her, because her attendance was somewhat sporadic. 1 week, right before spring break. Another week, a month ago. A week break, and then the last week.
Usually the first week is mostly the basics, with maybe a little almost free fencing. The second week we usually add in a little more bouting, ditto for the third week. And then by a month you're usually in the beginning class for the first half or so, then usually you get to free fence for the second half, with some supervision to help prevent bad habits from forming.

[kuroutesshin]

As a member of a collegiate club, we have problems with retentions... we'll maybe have 30 or so club members at the end of the year, and when our recruitment drive starts up in the fall we'll get close to 40-50 new members, with veterans returning in some numbers.

That new recruit number gets slashed by quarters within a month. This past year was particularly bad, as we ended up with roughly four newcomers who stayed through the entire year and came to compete with us. MAny of our travel spots were filled up by veterans, it's true, but having four out of the 40 stay through the two semesters is rough.

For collegiate clubs, a problem I see is the emphasis on travelling and competition. Don't get me wrong- I love competing and improving myself, but for those people who just want to learn to fence and not worry about competing for a strip space or a travel seat will find themselves disappointed. We train a lot. We travel a lot. In years past, one night a week was generally open fencing day, but that was eliminated to add more training.

The two main issues I see with any club are penetrability and fun. The first question should be, "is it easy to become a fencer?" If you have to ingratiate yourself to elite fencers or veterans, or the coaching staff, or it takes you a few weeks to become "accepted" you're probably at the wrong club. A few of our newcomers have dropped out over the years because of their treatment by veteran fencers- overly critical, unfriendly, cliquish, etc. The second question should be "is it fun to be a fencer?" (Obviously the answer should be yes) but there needs to be more.

To end this missive with an anecdote- I work at a local restaurant over the summers, both as a waiter and a host. I get to know a lot of people by face/appearance/drink preference/unusual quirks/bad tipping tendency. I also help coach at a small club that meets informally- a lot of young children and elementary-age folks, with a few older men and women. While I was getting ready to leave the restaurant, I ran into a student and his father (who also fences occasionally) and had a conversation about practice cancellations, new club emails, when the little guy's new practice gear was coming in, and what we were doing next week.

It's that sort of repartee that's important- it keeps people interested, it helps them get to know each other, and it's friendly. Those are the things American fencing needs- not the impenetrable attitude of high-level fencing or the old world aristocratic touch.

[thekoby]

This is a major problem with my club right now. At the start of each fall semester we host a "Newbie Night" where anybody interested in fencing can come for free demonstrations and to sign up for our 6-week beginner course. We typically have around 30-50 people sign up that night, but as the weeks go by, fewer and fewer people return to practices, despite us not charging them a dime of membership fees until the end of the beinnger course.

As we go into the spring semester, out of the original 50-some members that signed up, we will only retain 3-7 of those members, and by the end of that semester we are usually lucky to keep at least 3 of those remainders. I understand that it is hard being at college and being involved in a club, but our practices are at night in the middle of the week, so we aren't interfering with any campus events or off-campus weekend parties and are late enough in the evening that I would assume most people would have their homework finished enough to take a one or two hour break to go stab some people...repeatedly!

I've been racking my brain for the last three years trying to figure out how to retain a larger amount of members, even going as far as changing the lesson plans for my foil classes so they seem more appealing. I am hoping that with recent tournament results we can show incoming members something to strive for besides being able to tell their friends, "I know how to fence, top that!" Any suggestions?

[aamct2]

Having practices structured greatly helped our retention rate. In addition, we've started:

+) doing more events (not just tournaments and fundraising, but social ones too)
+) weekly e-mail newsletters (that way they're always reminded about it)
+) have a sizable officer/assistant coaching staff to get people involved in doing things for the club besides fencing (makes the club run smoother and keeps people involved)
+) interact with other clubs in the area

The list above isn't exhaustive, but it's a place to start.

[thekoby]

+) doing more events (not just tournaments and fundraising, but social ones too)
+) weekly e-mail newsletters (that way they're always reminded about it)
+) have a sizable officer/assistant coaching staff to get people involved in doing things for the club besides fencing (makes the club run smoother and keeps people involved)
+) interact with other clubs in the area

All those ideas are great and I've started using some of them this past year. Four years ago one of our instructors started an online forum that only club members could access to help us become more orginized and hold discussions outside of club. It also allowed us to plan events and just be ourselves and say whatever (within reason). Recently, activity on the forums has died off to the point that I am generally the only member who logs in anymore to check for updates or even posts news or reminders.

I am, however, pushing for a more competetive club and strongly encouraging members who don't wish to compete to at least join those who do and cheer them on at tournaments. It's very hard to take pictures of yourself when you are the one fencing. Like I mentioned before, I'm hoping that the trophies I've earned this last season will show incoming members for next season just what they can accomplish if they stick with it and not just stay for the first class.

[Cardinalred]

I'll share a little about our club and what we've got going on. I must say, I was really relieved to read that we're not the only club that struggles to keep new members.

I fence in a college club and have been for longer than I've attended classes there. Currently we meet only one night a week from 7 until 9pm, and afterwards we usually go out somewhere to eat. Starting in the fall, we're planning to expand to two nights a week. Our core group of fencers, which only tallies about 12, do local tournaments (there are two other clubs in our area) as well as carpool to do tournaments with other college clubs. We even managed to win the Botterall Trophy in Ohio representing the Ky. Division. (Hey, we're proud of it!) While we do take tournaments seriously, we're never harsh in our drilling and preparation. At the end of the day we're just a group of people that really enjoy fencing, have fun doing it, and help one another improve. (we do have a coach too, whom I believe posts on this forum)

Anyhow...

We offer a ten week beginners class in foil that is open to the community. The cost is $50. That's it. The only other cost is through the University for IDs permitting non-students to use the gym facilities. Those are only $10 per semester. As for our club, once you have paid the $50 up front as a student, you're a welcomed member of our club for as long as you desire to fence at no additional charge. All you have to pay is the ID fee to the University. Frankly, that's a hell of a deal when compared to other clubs from what I've read....and yet we still have the same problem of keeping members. On top of our own club course, the University has an introduction to foil class as a gym course. The obvious thing that comes to mind would be to attract those fencers, but again, most just aren't interested after the semester is up. I'm currently dating the ONE that has come to fence with our club.

We're a pretty social club, but one thing we're planning to do is to have even MORE social events. Cook outs, pool parties, a movie night...things of that nature that is open to not only the regulars of the club, but all of the new students as well, and the students of the University gym course. Our hope is that such things will make new fencers feel even more a part of our club, and more welcomed. Things can get pretty busy on a good night of fencing...and to us, it may not seem that way because we're enjoying it, but it's easy to get carried away and not focus on the social interaction with the new members like we should. Hopefully by slowing down and spending more time AWAY from the strip with them, we can keep them coming back to spend time with us ON the strip.

[thekoby]

your post sounds very similar to my problem. My club offers a 6-week foil course (meeting three nights a week) for Ball State students. They are under no obligation to pay club dues until after the first 6 weeks. The problem is that after the 6 week foil class is over, all the new members leave minus 2 or 3 that actually want to stick around and learn more.

[Cardinalred]

Well, the $50 class fee is required up front but we typically don't charge it until after the first week of class. That way people do get a chance to see what it's like before we pay them, but by having paid that $50 our hope was that they would have a little more incentive to stick around a little longer. If they stick around long enough to finish the course, then we have more chances to make them feel more a part of the club. To date however, this hasn't really produced any more success than what I'm reading here.

[LesleighSabre1988]

I know! I mean, most of the members have came from the University class.. you would think that if someone had money invested in something, that they would stay around longer... I do like the idea of having a foil tournament at the end of the class.. one where the entire club would participate. since most of us are saberists, we would most likely get out butts kicked! (i know I would) . a boost to the ego of a newcomer is always a good way to keep them around. When I first came to the club, I foil fenced one of the regulars in the club. I beat him, and even though I didn't know at the time that he DESPISED foil, and hadn't done it in ages, it was a good boost to the ego, and I stuck around to see if I could be halfway decent in this sport.

[thekoby]

That's similar to what my club does. At the end of the 6-week course we do a mock USFA tournament for only the members (but I think I might steal your idea of having the older members join in this year) so they can get a feel for what a tournament will be like and we even hand out prizes for first second and third.

[Cardinalred]

I'm a fan of having a tournament for all the new students, as well as students from the University's gym course. Having regular members fence in it, however, could be as damaging as it would be helpful. I know a new foilist would be competitive against me as I don't fence foil. We do, however, have a damn good foilist in our club. While beating me, whom they would perceive as better due to my status in the club would be encouraging....losing to our other member would be just as discouraging and they may feel as though they were only invited to fence just to get beat. Get what I'm saying?

[thekoby]

you could totally own the new fencers then tell them they now have something to shoot for: beating you (or the foilist).

My goal for my first few years was to beat my instructor in a 5-touch epee bout. Once I accomplished that, I stepped it up to a 15-touch bout. Just a thought...I'm not sure if this idea will work for everybody, but the idea of one day being as good or better than my first instructor is part of what kept me in fencing.

[emagdnim]

My club has a very low attrition rate, a little over 50% i can expect almost every practice, 30% show up every other week or so. so I'd say maybe only 15% actually leave.

I attribute this to the fact that we are a very closely knit group, most of us hang out outside of fencing and we almost always have the majority of the club go out to eat after practice.

aka if someone stops showing up we bug them about it until they come back

[Delta]

fatfencer - in regards to your last post, I just wanted to add something to that.

I think the negativity can also come from the fact that most people are not prepared to have their Princess Bride stereotype interrupted by light boxes and refs who do crazy hand signals.
That and the fact that parents everywhere will often dump their children into sports and other recreational activities hoping that the sport will build character, discipline, etc. etc. with the expectation that unsolid family relationships will be compensated by the coach/sport. I've seen many children come and go through my martial arts school with parents who expect the head instructor to somehow baby-sit/be the parent of a child who clearly has an unsolid foundation at home. This has never worked i.e. attrition rates continue to skyrocket faster than gas prices.

emagdnim - you made an excellent point. Some people like the social groups that come with fencing clubs. But then again, some people only fence because of the social groups...I've also noticed this to be a factor in attrition rates. I mean, if your friends are doing it, and you don't think it's fun, then why stick around?

[thekoby]

Originally Posted by Delta

emagdnim - you made an excellent point. Some people like the social groups that come with fencing clubs. But then again, some people only fence because of the social groups...I've also noticed this to be a factor in attrition rates. I mean, if your friends are doing it, and you don't think it's fun, then why stick around?

The only problem I have with this is that sometimes members of my club come only to socialize and it is like pulling teeth to get them to pick up a weapon or participate in footwork drills. If they don't want to fence and only want to talk about what they did over the weekend, that is what telephones and AIM is for, not practice time. I have no problem with people socializing and being in their little cliques at practice, just as long as they practice. Fencing is a great sport to make long-lasting friendships...mostly because after you are through stabbing each other you go out and get IHOP or a round of beer (for those members who are of age).