High turnover rates at fencing clubs

[Tea of Cups]

I've also noticed that, lately, at least at our club, those who tend to continue in fencing are the older fencers -- those who were introduced to fencing late in life (i.e. after they turned 25!). The college aged fencers who show up for the beginners' classes generally tend to not stick with fencing.

I couldn't agree more. I think age has a great importance on whether the beginners actually stay with the sport. If I myself had started fencing even a year before I did, my chances of staying would have been very low. I simply wasn't motivated enough to start a whole new sport. Therefore, I'm very glad that I waited for the right time.

The other reason why I decided to stay with fencing was because the people of my club. The coaches were supportive, and other fencers were extremely nice.
And believe me when I say this: the atmosphere makes all the difference, especially for young, shy children. When I was younger, I quit a lot of hobbies that I really liked just because the people in the group/club.
For an example, once in a theatre club there were these two girls who called a friend of mine ugly right to her face (plus some other nasty things). Needless to say, I left the club pretty soon after that...

[JohnK]

I had a talk with this fencing master a while back and he was
complaining about very high turnover rates at his club. His statistics
were extremely disturbing. He said from 16 people who started the
beginner class, only 6 or 7 showed up for the follow up intermediate class.
That is over 50% attrition rate !!

I had fenced epee in college but given it up for 14 years, so when I started again last fall I signed up for a beginner adult epee class at a major and well-respected club here in the US (it's a club that basically ignores foil and doesn't start people out in foil and move them into other weapons.)

I forget the fee but it was once a week for several months, somewhere around $200.

Probably about 18 people showed up at the first class and it was down to 6-8 the next class, and that's where it stayed for the rest of the sessions.

It escapes me why someone would pay that much money for something and quit after one class. The first class was of course mostly footwook but we did pick up blades and do a little of that...

I have no idea why people quit; maybe they thought they'd be swinging from chandeliers slashing away at people in the first class. I think some were overwhelmed at the pain of even the fairly brief period of simple footwork and being in en garde position.

[fluidfencer]

epeeisky,

It's hard to fence with a club anywhere in the South and be near another club. You need to seek out those that have good fencers and try to do things together. It depends on what your (and your club's) goals are, but you need to travel to get experience, even if you already have some good fencers in your club.

In what city are you located?

At my fencing club out of 20 begginers there are around 5 of us left that went on to the novice class. Part of that is due to we are the only fencing club for over 60 miles. Also, the LA division doesnt hold the number or quality of the competitions that other divisions are able to sponsor. There is only one major tournament for our division, the CCO. So basically the attitude is not right to keep many fencers in my are.

[Allen Evans]

There are several hurdles in getting fencers into a club program, and then keeping them there.

The first hurdle is getting fencers in the door. That seems to be improving with the success of American fencers on the international stage, more publicity about the sport, better trained coaches and more clubs being available to new fencers. Fencing clubs are also beginning to understand that they face a lot of competition from many activities and are working hard to ease barriers to new students

The second hurdle is keeping fencers in their first class. Fencing is often not what the students thought it was going to be, the instructor may not be the best coach for beginners, the students may just be dabbling in new activities, and so forth. High turnover rates among beginning classes (as high as 50 to 75 percent) are not that unusual, and probably should not be a concern to a club or coach. I would not be surprised if this was not a normal statistic for a lot of recreational activities.

The third hurdle is keeping them in the club after the class. My previous club (Salle Auriol in Seattle) offers a progression of classes that keep fencers coming to club, and while they are at club, Salle Auriol works hard to integrate them into the club culture. The retention rate for the advanced classes (when last I was at SAS) was very high, on the order of 75 to 100 percent. If your club offers advanced fencing classes and the attrition rate is still 50 percent or more from these classes, something is going wrong. These are the people the club has hooked and who have bought into the program, but are being driven away despite that.

Finally, once class is over, keeping the fencers as club members is the last step. If your club has done all the other steps right (got students in the door, kept them entertained as beginners, and challenged in subsequent classes) the retention rate from the pipeline should be pretty high.

If it is not, though, there can be many many factors that effect the transition from classes to full club membership. Talking to class members who do not turn into club members would be of value in this case.

[epeezack]

The atrition rate at my old club (TFC, for those of you in the Va. div.) was about that, but slower. As the students learned that ths sport is not as easy as it seems, the pansys left, and the strong pressed on. The atrition at my new club (RFC) is bad also, as only a very few people came back.

[fluidfencer]

As our club doubled this last year, we learned a lot of lessons about communication. The web site provides an important introduction. We rewrote our handbook and make that available online (actually, will be soon), which answers just about anything the parent of a fencer would want to know (at about 70 pages). We further communcate by email and a newsletter that comes out about once every two weeks.

So, if you do a good job communcating with new and prospective fencers (and their parents) your retention rate should be better.

There are several hurdles in getting fencers into a club program, and then keeping them there.

The first hurdle is getting fencers in the door. That seems to be improving with the success of American fencers on the international stage, more publicity about the sport, better trained coaches and more clubs being available to new fencers. Fencing clubs are also beginning to understand that they face a lot of competition from many activities and are working hard to ease barriers to new students

The second hurdle is keeping fencers in their first class. Fencing is often not what the students thought it was going to be, the instructor may not be the best coach for beginners, the students may just be dabbling in new activities, and so forth. High turnover rates among beginning classes (as high as 50 to 75 percent) are not that unusual, and probably should not be a concern to a club or coach. I would not be surprised if this was not a normal statistic for a lot of recreational activities.

The third hurdle is keeping them in the club after the class. My previous club (Salle Auriol in Seattle) offers a progression of classes that keep fencers coming to club, and while they are at club, Salle Auriol works hard to integrate them into the club culture. The retention rate for the advanced classes (when last I was at SAS) was very high, on the order of 75 to 100 percent. If your club offers advanced fencing classes and the attrition rate is still 50 percent or more from these classes, something is going wrong. These are the people the club has hooked and who have bought into the program, but are being driven away despite that.

Finally, once class is over, keeping the fencers as club members is the last step. If your club has done all the other steps right (got students in the door, kept them entertained as beginners, and challenged in subsequent classes) the retention rate from the pipeline should be pretty high.

If it is not, though, there can be many many factors that effect the transition from classes to full club membership. Talking to class members who do not turn into club members would be of value in this case.

[Alain]

Our club was on the brink of folding a few years ago. A few members left due to moving out of the area; all the pentathletes that used to train with us (and spend their money with us) got relocated; beginners would come and either stay or wonder off, as there was nothing structured for them; and we had no website. In all, we had perhaps less than 20 members.

We stayed about the same size for quite some time, picking up the odd member here and there. Then two coaches from another club in the area, which had folded, came to us and asked to join the club and bring their members (all beginners) with them. Soon after, we started to run set beginner courses, which have proved hugely popular and we're now running our 9th.

Two of us coach the beginners (I've done the last 3, now I'm back in the UK) - 24 on a class - and each course has been full. We've gotten these pretty much down to an art: we ask people for a form and a cheque, which covers the whole cost of the course, and then they're invited along to a taster session. The course starts off with one of these sessions, covering the basics - if they don't like it, we return their cheque; if they decide to continue (and everyone has so far), we keep the cheque and they stay on the course. Classes are at a set date and time, and after the 10 lessons they get up to a pretty good standard. More importantly, almost all the beginners stay to the end of the course, and in total we get about +70% of them going onto join us as full members.

At the same time, one of our members set up the club website, which has been great for attracting new people (as well as experienced fencers) to the club. We also got our club tracksuits and t-shirts redesigned and sponsored (by Duellist); to date, over 50 people have bought a tracksuit, and we've sold countless t- polo- and rugby shirts. And now we have club patches for members to wear. One of the best things to come from the website was a club logo - it's on the site, on our tracksuits, and on our patches - which helps make the club more of a club, I think.

With money coming in, we've been able to replace (and sell) absolutely all the old (well, ancient) scoring equipment we had; we bought 7 brand new sets, as well as 24 complete starter kits for beginner courses. The club has introduced monthly competition nights - 35 fencers turned up for the last one - and has also set up Standing Order payments for members (where they can pay in monthly/quarterly instalments) as well as online banking, membership cards, a quarterly newsletter, and a really good club sponsorship deal (again with Duellist). This has been a good selling point and adds encouragement for the beginners to join.

So over just a couple of years the club has grown massively, and at the moment we have about 80 members.

Ummmmm, so, the main things:
A good website that stands out - a useful tool for keeping members up to date with what's going on at the club. Also, for new people it tends to be the first thing they see, and first impressions count.
Good club kit which is properly maintained.
Competitive pricing as well as flexible payments.
A good number of coaches, able to cater for all abilities.
Structured and well-planned beginner courses. Set-length courses are the way forwards, and asking people for money up front means that those who apply have a genuine interest.
There are other things, too, but I just came home from a 3-hour exam, my brain is fried, and I can't be bothered to type any more!

[epeeisky]

epeeisky,

It's hard to fence with a club anywhere in the South and be near another club. You need to seek out those that have good fencers and try to do things together. It depends on what your (and your club's) goals are, but you need to travel to get experience, even if you already have some good fencers in your club.

In what city are you located?

I am located in Baton Rouge, which has a very good club. Right now the cluns goals seem to be building a fencing community in Baton Rouge and building the skill of the current club. The nearest fencing club is Laffayette, which has a decent coach but not as good as my epee coach. The Laffayette coach comes to our club every Thursday to help out and someimes one of our coaches goes overe there to teach. Then there are the New Orleans clubs, but they are primarily sabre because of Dr. Hamori. I am lucky enough to have a "B" rated eppeist for a coach(Chip), but over the summer I do hope to take some lesssons at the Laffayete Fencing club and maybe farther if I have time.

I think I met you at the 2005 CCO.

[ZenEpeeist]

You've hit the nail on the head. I've seen a lot of people who wanted to try out fencing, but few who really want to commit to it.

The main thing is just to foster an environment that encourages people to stay on instead of discouraging them (for example, good fencing, plenty of people, good feedback and afterwards go out to a resteraunt and have fun) After that, the numbers grow!

[glowstix]

The main thing is just to foster an environment that encourages people to stay on instead of discouraging them (for example, good fencing, plenty of people, good feedback and afterwards go out to a resteraunt and have fun) After that, the numbers grow!

been there, done that..club still fell apart. now i'm an UNAT at tournaments.

[ZenEpeeist]

Is there a problem with switching clubs? Or belonging to/training at multiple clubs? If that's what a person wants out of his/her fencing experience and that's what's going to provide him/her with the most enjoyment, why not?

I agree. I think that everybody should get more than just one perspective on coaching, it does nothing but benefit.

i'll fence newbies if they show genuine interest. i don't fence that often and i have to drive forever just to get to the club so i like to spend that time wisely by fencing the guys that have the same interest and enthusiasm as i do (and those that can kick my a$$ so i actually learn and improve).

Yes, some would call this elitist, but really you are just looking out for your self interest, which is fine.

I think that in the ideal situation, you would have a really good fencer or coach who would be a benefactor and would attract beginners, intermediates and advanced fencers. That way you would be able to fence the advanced fencers along with the newbies and the intermediates and it would benefit everybody involved.

Don't discount beginners, though. You can learn alot from them. After fencing the same advanced people day in and day out, beginners can surprise you and land get some good (and might I add creative) touches.

[Larrison]

Hmm... let me chime in here from personal experience as a fencer who has re-started fencing after being off for almost 20 years.

First, how did I find a club?
Found it through the USFA web site, plus through a web search. Actually I found two clubs in my local area. Both clubs had web sites.

Secondly, how did I pick a club?
Basically, I researched the club through the web sites. Both clubs web sites offered some background on the club, schedules, costs, backgrounds on couches, achievements of the members of the club in competition, etc. Using that as a starter, I picked a club based upon, location (not too far to drive), nights/ afternoons it was offering fencing (other activities during the week mean that at least 2 nights a week I can't make it to the club), and the reputation of the club. I picked a club which was somewhat smaller, but with a permanent facility (the other didn't have a permanent facility), and had a good youth program, since I was going into this with a 14-year old partner.

I also did a little bit of a due diligence into the "culture" of the club, and its social aspects. I was looking for a club that was at least semi-serious about fencing as a sport (and less about playacting swordplay), and where there was going to be an emphasis on teaching and improving one's game. But I didn't want a club that was only interested in "elite" fencers, or one that was a total Nazi about commitment to fencing above everything else in life. But if I wanted to keep this sport up for years, it had to be a club that I could at least have some relationship with other members such that I would enjoy going to the classes and competitions.

I've been pretty happy so far, and my partner is enjoying it as well. I'm currently in my 3rd round of classes with the club, and slowly improving my game back to where it used to be. And my 14 year old partner has gone from a total beginner to competing in his first USFA Y-14 competition, and wants to continue with the sport.

And the club seems to be continuing to grow -- they're now starting to have to limit the number of persons per class, since they are getting too many people in the classes (!). The limit seems to be having good coaches, not in people wanting to take classes.

So... lessons learned for how to reduce turnover rates at a club? Offer something to keep the people coming back. While officially I've repeated the intermediate foil class, the lessons have not really been repeated, so I'm still learning new things and still working on new tactics and drills. For any club, this is having good coaching, and putting a little thought into drills and lessons, even group lessons.

The website is a key piece of marketing -- both to get your name out, and to provide key information on the club.

Encourage competition and growth in the fencers. Having "winners" in the club is a good selling point, plus by fostering a competitive spirit you get people to work on being a better fencer, which means continuing to fence and return to the club.

Consider both elite/ advanced fencers and beginning/ intermediate fencers. You want both -- since todays' beginning/ intermediate fencers are the one who will grow into the elites, but also since there are a lot more beginning/ intermediates, they are the ones who will pay the bills, show up to work activities, and sparkplug the club.

Add a little bit of social "glue" to the club. Have some socials, and have some mailings and things to keep people feeling they are part of a community. Don't focus totally on the elite fencers, but make sure everyone feels like they can contribute and enjoy being part of the club. This includes being friendly at the club, encouraging a teaching/ team spirit at the club, and encouraging folks to stay and bout or talk after lessons. One of the cool things I like with my current club, is they are trying to foster a culture where after you bout, both of the fencers then talk about what they saw in the other's fencing styles -- what worked on them and didn't, what they saw in their opponents style, etc. I'm learning a lot from that...

Try to do something to sponsor some team/ club spirit. Have a logo and a patch or at least a t-shirt with a logo on it. Sponsor inter-club competitions, where your club will host another club (such as a local university club or team) to an informal Friday night or Saturday tournament. Then take pictures and put them on the web site.. Do the same with socials. There are different things that have been suggested,

Lastly, don't forget the club can survive reasonably high turnovers, if you keep getting new students to come in. If you have 80% turnover in 5 successive classes, you still have 20% x 5 remaining... So don't forget to keep marketing and exposing the club to new potential fencers.

[ReverseLunge]

Many years ago I took a beginning foil class. Out of the 35 or so people in that class I am the only one who is still fencing. Most of the people who try fencing think its fun and easy. Most of them stop going to the class after they are taught how to lunge (serious pain for the next 3-7 days if you did it right). The few that finish the class stop fencing after a few weeks or months since they are so annoyed at being beaten all the time. It took me like 8 months before I could beat anyone decent.

I think a lot of the folks that try fencing are yuppies who just want to get that under their belt. Kind of like when I tried sky diving or bungee jumping. Sky diving was fun but would I want to spend the rest of my life pursuing it? nah...

Oh jeez. Now I'm thinking about all the time in life I have lost to fencing. All those Friday nights when my friends were out having the time of their lives and I was at the club arguing with some other extremnist a$$hole like me over who had fricken right of way!

[Mikoyan]

My university club had a really big problem with retaining recruits for a number of years. We’d frequently lose about 60-70 per cent of the rookies that turned up for the first beginner practice of the year. Towards the end of last season, we sat down and took a look at what we could do to retain fencers, and now I’d guesstimate that we’re holding on to close to 80 per cent of our beginners. This is how we managed:

1. Groups. In past years, we’d train the newbies as one big group. Sure, we’d get some doing physical training, some doing bladework, and some doing footwork, and rotate them through the stations, but there was never any organization to it. This season, our beginners have been divided up into 6 permanent groups, so that they’re given a chance to bond with each other and make new friends.

2. More effective use of our varsity athletes. In the past, we’d have some varsity members helping instruct, and the rest would just hang around talking with each other and watching everything. I’m sure this was a little off-putting to the beginners. This year, varsity members have been assigned to each group, so that the beginners have friendly faces that they’re paired with each and every class.

3. We’re definitely actively engaging with our beginners this season too. I’ve made an effort to personally know the names of at least a quarter of the beginners, and a lot of other club/varsity members have done the same. There’s a lot more banter back and forth this season, and the interaction is definitely positive.

These are the steps we’ve taken, and they’re all pretty simple. I’m going to get ahold of the membership list and email everyone who’s stuck with us so far this weekend, to see if they have any questions that they might be nervous to ask in front of a large group, and I’m sure that will help retain fencers as well. I’m very impressed with what we’ve accomplished, we’ve easily more than doubled our beginner pool this year, and that means a lot more money for the club.

Hope it helps!

[epee rocks]

Seems like that at my club about 50% of the people stay aswell, but the majority of the people who stay come 3-4 days a week. Fencing is very slow at the begnning (at least in my club) and most people get bored and dont come back.

[lanyingjie]

Heh, somewhat similar to my case. I got interested in fencing as a kid but my parents refused to support me (they still don't) and the only alternative around was a very pricey course that was 4 times my monthly allowance for a month. It didn't help that the club had outlets damn near my house, so whichever way I walked out I'd see fencers at it x.x.

Then last November I heard of this class started by a new club which was just starting out, fees were tons more affordable and I joined. It was supposed to be a beginner class of 12, but on the first session only 6 showed up and it stayed there for two weeks or so.

After a month, the coach got fed up and decided to cancel it, financially it just wasn't working out. So after that I stopped for about three months, but it was just before I reached college, and it so happened one of the girls in the class was headed to the same college as me.

We both got fed up and decided to start fencing in our school, so barring whatever ridiculous things the school put up like zero funding, no premises to train on and no support whatsoever, we got our old coach to help us.

Now we're about 30 strong and I'm glad actually, that we've managed to do it. Though one thing I have to say is that we've had a fairly high turnover rate too, or people who come, buy equipment and then hardly turn up. I can't be bothered, because to be honest as long as they pay the fees, we've got enough to pay the coach and survive on our shoestring budget.

Perhaps next year when we get a new intake of freshmen we should be able to improve the situation, I don't know.

Any ideas how?

[mrmgp]

most people join because they want to be d'artagnan or errol flynn

I tend to see myself more as an overweight Zorro...

[incarman]

after having well over 300 potential fencers come thru our doors in less than 2 years, i can attest to the high turn over rate. Currently we are at 60 to 80 members. pretty good huh? no really when you are tying to keep the bills paid, eak out a meager living, so on, so forth. the reason??? simple 1. we are in the age of instant gratification. if they can win gold medals in a few months or less, they move onto the next activity. 2. after speaking with a former top level youth fencer from germany, the problem is also due in part to the parents not trying to work thru the " i don't want to go sweat at fencing tonight mom". kids want to do fun things. not things that require dedication and hard work to get results. 3. there are too many choices for activities, there's football, baseball, basketball, music lessons, tons of homework. tired parents who can't be bothered to get their kids to fencing practice. 4. then you have the clown up the street who "used to fence in college" that rifles thru the countryside opening and closing fencing programs, giving it away for next to nothing. the kids may not doing anything at a national level, but they get to dabble for a few months until they move onto the next activity.
the solution??? clubs should try to expose as many young potential fencers to fencing and hope for the few that truly have a pasion for the sport. in todays modern age of instant gratification. expect for the trend to continue.

my club is like a bucket with a hole in the bottom, i pour the water in, it slowly pours out, over and over. the only way is to try to keep as much water in the bucket, make fencing fun, build freindships in the club and make the club a place to look forward to coming to. not a place to have to do hard work. all while stll trying to acheive results. it's a delicate frustrating balance.

[Grimaldi]

This is an interesting thread on an important subject, so hopefully my two cents will be helpful.

the problem is also due in part to the parents not trying to work thru the " i don't want to go sweat at fencing tonight mom". kids want to do fun things. not things that require dedication and hard work to get results. 3. there are too many choices for activities, there's football, baseball, basketball, music lessons, tons of homework. tired parents who can't be bothered to get their kids to fencing practice.

Here I think we can find one of the major causes for youths dropping out. It isn't fun right away, at least not like most kids who join expect. In my experience with other sports, drop out rates were pretty low. Why? I think a major factor is that the kids were doing what they expected to do: if you join a baseball team, at practice you're hitting the ball and fielding. Football practice (for kids, at least) has you the basic skills through drills (pass patterns, scrimmages, etc).

What do kids get at fencing practice? Footwork drills and fun, but non-fencing related (as far as they can see), games? Standing in akward positions for extended periods of time? Kids who join want to spar, and when they find out they won't get to for some time, many drop out to find something else.

Another thing many other sports have that a fencing club may not is a feeling of a team. On a baseball team, you're one member of a group. If you leave the team, it will (negatively) affect others. If the team mentality is stressed, there may be loyalty and cohesion that pulls people to stay. Many fencers feel alone, part of a disorganized group of individuals. If they leave, no one will care or notice.

This leads nicely into this observation:

We found that the best way to keep people in the club was to break into small groups of 4-6 beginners to one old member. This way the beginners get more individualized training, they learn each other's names, and they get to personally meet current members of the club. It has probably doubled our retention rates. If we keep 5-6 from the initial class, we count it as good.

If you're not part of an official team, small groups automatically become teams. Everyone knows everyone else, and each member knows his/her absence from the group will be noted and (hopefully) missed. This also allows fencers to progress quicker, which is always encouraging.

Think about the attrition rate at health clubs. I don't have the statistics handy, but most people who join health clubs only stick with it for a few months, and end up paying for a membership that they don't use.

Fencing isn't any different.

I think fencing is different for most people in this regard, because most people join for a fun activity first and foremost, whereas people joining a health club are doing it for a long-range goal (usually weight loss). Going to the gym and spending 1.5-2 hours a day (travel, clean-up and workout included) for something that isn't fun and shows results very slowly usually ends up with the person deciding that maybe they don't mind enjoying life a little larger. With something like fencing, people are looking for something fun, and as discussed above, if it's not what they were expecting, they might not bother to stick around.

g) they dislike (or are disliked by) the other people in their class

This seemed a little more prevalent in my college experience. After a few weeks with the school's club, I invited some friends to come along. One was an athletic druggie and the other an unathletic drifter. The first left because he had nothing in common with the group, and the other left because, although he liked the people, he was discouraged about his ability and didn't see the point in participating when he'd never be very good.

Fencing (like ballet) seems to have more than its fair share of prima donnas. I know I'm going to be unpopular saying this, but I have personally seen newcomers spurned by rated fencers who wouldn't give them the time of day because they felt they were a 'waste of time'.

At the clubs I've been in, while there may have been a few people like this, the number of helpful/nice experienced fencers always made up for it. Having the loudmouth there was always motivation, because I always wanted to get good enough to beat him. However, if ALL you had were jerks....yeah, that would be an issue.

So, in summary:

- building some kind of camaraderie/esprit de corps would help many organizations retention rates, I think

- review your goal with newbies. Is retention more important, or quicker progression? More work with blades up front will keep people more interested, so retention will probably be higher. Of course, that takes away from the other fundamentals and can develop bad habits/sloppy footwork, so it may slow the group's progression and challenge the instructors more. If nothing else, give an idea of when they'll get to bout so they have a goal to shoot for. Explain why they won't use blades at first, and won't bout for some time. It won't satisfy everybody, but it will help.

- student to teacher ratios will have a large impact on retention. A smaller ratio ensures students are individually recognized and progress faster. If you absolutely can't make the ratio better, make it a goal to have the instructor speak to each student individually over the course of practice. On something positive, especially something that notes a progress in skill over the last few sessions.

- I always see parents (or grandparents) sitting through class watching (or sewing, doing sudoku, whatever) and try to encourage them to participate, too. If you get the family involved, the ties are (again) much stronger. If you can get one to try it out, you'll usually get a good cascading effect with the others. Let them participate in the youth class instead of the regular adult class and stay near their child, depending on their purpose. Usually, at first, it's just for something to do while the kid does class, and to encourage the child. If that's good enough, they won't mind if they progress fairly slowly, and if they want more, they may start attending adult classes. It's similar to how the Suzuki method with violin is practiced in Japan (not in the US), and it's very effective.

[Delta]

the realization that olympic fencing is not all romance, seduction, treasure and princess bride provides one with enough perseverance to stick out the beginning course for P.E. credit, but discontinue thereafter.