I am waiting for you, Vizzini. You told me to go back to the beginning

[CheekyCanuck]

I'm more curious than anything, but when you started were you surprised at how good the competition was?

When I first started (not too long ago) I was surprised to find that my coaches were not even classified and that they fenced at the same level that I did (though thankfully they fenced in the men's foil). I was also surprised that the fencers that were winning the tournaments, were the fencers that had been winning the tournaments the year before.

I know that there are a lot of new fencers that don't want to go to the competitions because of the speed at which they will be eliminated in the DEs. This is a serious problem for getting people into competitions. Most of them want to ease in slowly. I don't know how it is in the States, but we need a level that is more for absolute beginners.
I no longer belong in that category, but I see the look on the faces of the green fencers that I'm now trouncing and I remember how it was.

When should you move on to greener pastures?

I will be trying my hand at a classification next season.
Anyone else have similar stories?

[wflaschka]

Originally Posted by CheekyCanuck

I'm more curious than anything, but when you started were you surprised at how good the competition was?

I remember being shocked at my first Nationals in the early eighties, it looked so big. And this was before they started ballooning in size.

I have only fragmentary recollections of when I started fencing. But now that I'm coaching, it's cool to see the discovery process of all the new fencers. There is a "glass hump" (like a glass ceiling, but you can go over it) which apparently can't be crossed until things like box-timing, tempo, and right of way are internalized, after which the artistry starts showing up. In smaller fencing ecologies this results in the same fencers dominating the scene for a long time. When a new fencer starts breaking through and getting sophisticated, it's quite exciting for a coach to see. This usually seems to take about three years from a standing start, though I'm whittling down the time.

/ramble off

[KD5MDK]

My suggestion is to go to smaller tournaments, where the big names are less likely to all come, or to see about finding or setting up ratings limited tournaments like E & Unders or D & Unders.

[Alain]

When I was a kid, I used to do age group tournaments - local ones and regional ones - as well as what's called the LPJS (Leon Paul Junior Series). I can't think of a much better introduction to competition fencing, at least for kiddies anyway.

Of course, the standard of competition will vary depending on where you are, but I think that if someone's just starting off at competitions, it'd be best to do so at the smallest level possible. The local competitions here are pretty good, and although the winners tend to be the same bunch of people, there's a good mix of all abilities.

Even before this, it may be a good idea to soften the blow of external competitions by introducing club ones - which will at least give them an introduction to how things run.

Best of luck

[veeco]

My suggestion is to go to smaller tournaments, where the big names are less likely to all come, or to see about finding or setting up ratings limited tournaments like E & Unders or D & Unders.

Well, not to contradict what has been said, but... I don't think that going to E & under and D & under tournaments is necessarily a good thing.

In my experience, the level in these tournaments is very low, and the fencers who do well in these tournaments don't usually break through to another level, or very few of them do.

I think that if the ultimate goal is to become a nationally ranked fencer or above, then the fencer should first compete in open local tournaments. Sure, it could be harder to break through.

But the advantages however, outweigh this little setback: the fencer will not see people winning tournaments thanks to hacks and tricks, and will instead concentrate on building up a reasonable technical repertoire. They will also see people winning tournaments using "proper" fencing, and will then have a better example to look up to. The initial period where the fencer loses in the first round will be difficult to handle. It's the coach's job to make sure that the student stays motivated through this period. This can be achieved by setting proper goals, and setting reasonable expectations.

One benefit to this approach is that the fencer won't also feel as if they buried their money to go to a more "difficult" tournament to get nothing in return: they will have competed against better opponents, who fence properly, and will also learn to deal with the real pressure of competition, as those E & under tournaments are usually nothing more than a competition between "leasurely fencers". Sorry if this hurts some people, please note that I am not trying to belittle these tournaments: they have a place and are important for people who fence without being competition oriented. IMO they are as much social events as they are a competition, and the atmosphere in these tournaments is nothing like the atmosphere you'd get even at a local open tournament.

Anyway, I think that going for the win in your first tournaments is probably more detrimental to your fencing than the initial boost of confidence this might give you.

Further, if the goal is to win a rating, then it is possible to earn that same rating at larger regional tournaments, without winning, but using proper fencing and learning the right lessons at the same time.

Edit: Alain's post reminded me of something I should have said - Of course, by open local tournaments, I mean tournaments which are appropriate for the age of the fencer. For instance, I wasn't saying that a 12 year old should compete right away in the senior's events.

[swordwench]

I've got to disagree with Veeco on this one. It depends on what level of fencing you want to achieve, and where you feel you are now. It's going to be different for everyone.

I keep expecting that I won't even want to remember my first tournament experience, it was that painful. But in retrospect, it was such an eye-opener about what the "real" fencers out there fenced like compared to what I was doing. It was an open, and the people there were all serious fencers (as in, many nationally ranked people, and just about everyone there had a rating)... except me, with one night of electric experience under my belt. Then I went to the other extreme and thought that doing a novice tournament might be a good idea. It wasn't. I was surrounded by all these little kids, and a lot of them had little club patches, and coaches hovering over them with every touch, and by god many of them were the serious-fencers-to-be. The rest of them were frighteningly bad (which ironically is harder to face than frighteningly good). It's possible that I fenced worse that day than I did at the open. At my level (granted, not good), I found a happy medium in a nice, solid D/E tournament. I didn't face opponents who humiliated me, nor did I face anyone who had no business being on the strip.

Most people would agree - start at the local low end of the spectrum, and claw your way up and out of the muck. I don't know if Canada has Novice tournaments like we do, but it might be a fine place to start if someone is totally green and doesn't mind the little tikes. If I had it to do all over again, I'd start with an E tournament.

[veeco]

Well, perhaps we are not that far of in our approaches. You went to a tournament with only one night of eletric fencing under your belt, it was an open and you got creamed. Nothing surprising. You shouldn't have gone to this tournament in the first place.

At this point, (when you're just starting fencing) I think that there are 3 different approaches that you can take:

1- You want to fence because you want to compete at the best level possible for you. I think that the best approach in this case is not to compete at all for at least 6 months to a year, so that you can learn the correct technique and not be trashed on your first local open.

2- Or you want to compete at the best level possible, but you want to compete right away. In that case, you should definitely go to the E tournaments. But IMO, you will have a harder time when you go to your first open down the line (in 6 months to a year) because you might have picked up bad habits and might have learned to "fence to win, at all costs" a little to early, which IMO is detrimental to your technique and your fencing.

3- You want to fence becaue you enjoy the social side of it. Then definitely go to the E tournament. You will meet friendly folks, have fun, maybe learn a few things along the way.

[armataforte]

Originally Posted by Alain

When I was a kid, I used to do age group tournaments - local ones and regional ones - as well as what's called the LPJS (Leon Paul Junior Series). I can't think of a much better introduction to competition fencing, at least for kiddies anyway.

Of course, the standard of competition will vary depending on where you are, but I think that if someone's just starting off at competitions, it'd be best to do so at the smallest level possible. The local competitions here are pretty good, and although the winners tend to be the same bunch of people, there's a good mix of all abilities.

Even before this, it may be a good idea to soften the blow of external competitions by introducing club ones - which will at least give them an introduction to how things run.

Best of luck

I agree with Alain. Thing is things work differently in England than they do in the US. When I started fencing at my university in England, my first competition was a foil team event for beginners. There were another couple of those (individual and team events) that were organized throughout the country for novices and beginners that helped people get their feet wet. Here in the US, I have found that the easiest way to do that is by going to a local comp, whether it is a monthly club tournament or something similar. The issue with this is that a) you tend to fence the same people who may cream you at the club in the first place; and b) the levels vary depending on what approach you take (see veeco's reply) which may affect your motivation to want to participate/compete again...at the end of the day, it's a matter of investment and how much one loves fencing.

[Mr Epee]

First in answer to the question, I was lucky enough to start young enough that I was never terribly shocked by the level of competition. In another thread, I related that my first competition ever was a U-15 foil event at J.O.’s first bout was against one of the best kids in the country (Alex Wood) – I lost 5-3, but made it to the second round of pools before I got bounced. I was satisfied. I had been fencing for almost 2 years at that point though.

In my first ever Div 1 Nationals, I was 15/16 and made the top 32. (also foil)… again not shocked by the level.

BUT BUT BUT.

(Now fencing epee) A few years later, when I was old enough to know what was going on and appreciate the level of competition, I had a tendency to get a little psyched out by certain people… There was one guy in particular (big lefty: not Tamir) who was ranked in the top 16. He beat me several times in one season, but after the season I was at home and dug out some old tapes for fun. I picked one out from Nationals a few years before, and there I was goofy, skinny, and a very awkward age 16/17 laying the smack down on this guy.

The difference?

I was a much worse fencer back then, but I had the benefit of having absolutely no clue who this guy was, and that I should have been nervous.

Before watching the old tape, I had no idea that I had ever fenced that guy before. After watching the tape, I don’t recall losing to him again.

The moral? If nurtured properly ignorance is a powerful ally.

Ok that’s my personal experience

Veeco,

I think you are probably right when it comes to epee, but very very bad things tend to happen to novice foil fencers, in open competitions. (Assuming adults, and no age brackets to soften the initiation).

[KD5MDK]

I would quit fencing if I didn't get the chance to compete at least every month or so. I suppose a gap over the summer (like I'm currently in) is ok. But really, I ought to be shot if my goal is to be a nationally ranked fencer. My only chance there is Div III Vet-22.
So I approach training differently than a person whose goal really is to be nationally ranked.
However, if fencers are avoiding competitions because they are getting slaughtered, either we need to kick them out of the fencing community or have events aimed at their level: E and Unders, D & Unders, etc.

Some people are dedicated enough to accept a no win season as part of the learning process. I'm not.

[sreckiki]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

I was a much worse fencer back then, but I had the benefit of having absolutely no clue who this guy was, and that I should have been nervous.

Before watching the old tape, I had no idea that I had ever fenced that guy before. After watching the tape, I don’t recall losing to him again.

The moral? If nurtured properly ignorance is a powerful ally.

Ok that’s my personal experience

My experience is completly opposite to yours. Maybe it's because I was older (24 yo) and because I did some other sports at a decent level before starting fencing.

In my early days, when I fenced a guy, I really needed to know who he was. Knowing that the guy was good helped me a lot to get some clean fencing, to "produce" my "best" fencing at that time and to kind of transcend myself. I never felt nervous at all and ignorance was not and is still not my ally! .

That was my 2 cents.

[kalivor]

Well, I don't know where you are in Canada, but ...

1. Your profile says you've been fencing for one year, which means you've only known the new classification system in Canada. Since classifications must now be renewed every year, and you have to be in the top 40% of the points list to get one, if your coaches haven't been overly competitive over the past year (particularly in MF or ME) they'd be unlikely to hold a classification.

2. Why are you surprised that the previous year's winners continued to win? Did you expect them to get worse?

3. Again, I don't know where you are, but here in Ontario we have a "circuit" which consists mostly of D-and-under competitions, with a couple of C-and-under and a couple of unclassified-only tournaments. They tend to be a good place for fencers to get their feet wet without being completely blown away, though a first-competition fencer is still unlikely to make it out of the first round of DEs.

There are also a couple of "for beginners" tournaments (though I don't think they explicitly ban Us who have been fencing for too long) as well as a "for fun" team tournament in each weapon (with randomly selected teams) and a youth circuit. I know Quebec has a "AAA" circuit that's much like the low/un-rated Ontario circuit.

And lastly, most of Canada's population lives a short drive from the U.S. border. As people here have pointed out, there's no shortage of lower-level events there ...

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by sreckiki

My experience is completly opposite to yours. Maybe it's because I was older (24 yo) and because I did some other sports at a decent level before starting fencing.

I agree that it is very very different to start young.

I think that my experience is similar to many young athletes, who more often than not, do not fully appreciate their accomplishments. In a way this can be useful, or at least it was to me.

If someone would have come to me as a young competitor, and started mumbling their way through some lame speech about "internalizing box timings" - they would have received a pretty sweet blank stare for their troubles...

As a kid it's much more like WHOO-HOO !!! I'm fencing.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by kalivor

And lastly, most of Canada's population lives a short drive from the U.S. border. As people here have pointed out, there's no shortage of lower-level events there ...

OUCH!!!!!!!!

I would think this cruel, if I wasn't laughing so hard.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

OUCH!!!!!!!!

I would think this cruel, if I wasn't laughing so hard.

It's not meant to be cruel. There are also higher level events there, such as Div I NACs, and probably a large number of events at a similar level to the average Canadian Open. But if you check out askfred.net, you'll find a lot of E-and-under tournaments listed. That would definitely be "lower-level."

[CheekyCanuck]

Originally Posted by kalivor

2. Why are you surprised that the previous year's winners continued to win? Did you expect them to get worse?

When I started to compete, I did quite well within the club setting. I beat all of the other new fencers without problem and expected to find people of my level at the tournaments, making the tournament more challenging. I was surprised to find fencers of such a higher caliber still competing in the D-and-under. To me it seemed as though they should have moved upward and onward. Now that I have won a few tournaments, against those very same fencers, I do plan to move toward a higher level (if I can ). I will not go to the D-and-under tournaments so that other fencers can have a chance.

Originally Posted by kalivor

3. Again, I don't know where you are, but here in Ontario we have a "circuit" which consists mostly of D-and-under competitions, with a couple of C-and-under and a couple of unclassified-only tournaments. They tend to be a good place for fencers to get their feet wet without being completely blown away, though a first-competition fencer is still unlikely to make it out of the first round of DEs.

Still, it remains that there are fencers that are very good, that have been around forever (so to speak ). Perhaps they stay because they're not very competitive or they like to win, but it is quite possible for them to remain unclassified by simply not going to the appropriate tournaments.

Originally Posted by kalivor

There are also a couple of "for beginners" tournaments (though I don't think they explicitly ban Us who have been fencing for too long) as well as a "for fun" team tournament in each weapon (with randomly selected teams) and a youth circuit. I know Quebec has a "AAA" circuit that's much like the low/un-rated Ontario circuit.

Too true. See above comment.

I'm not trying to argue one way or another. I really don't know what the best method for training/tempering a new fencer is. I definitely had a trial by fire and my results do show a steady increase in points and ability, so for me it seems fencing better fencers somehow rubs off (iieewwww )
But I have witnessed many a fencer decline entering competitions, because they "didn't want to be embarrassed". Let's face it entering a tournament isn't cheap and only the dedicated (or wealthy) will continue after a serious trouncing.
Perhaps it is better this way. It does weed out the less capable.

But somehow I feel that we all loose by not including all of those fencers.

There is always the constant complaint that fencing isn't a popular sport and that few people want to watch or that membership is down.
What happens at the lower levels will dictate the interest that is shown toward the sport.
If little Billy loves baseball, but can only play with people who are minor league athletes, then little Billy is going to give up on baseball really quickly.

Perhaps I didn't go to the right tournaments (D-and-under), but I still think this is something that needs some considered.

[veeco]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Before watching the old tape, I had no idea that I had ever fenced that guy before. After watching the tape, I don’t recall losing to him again.

The moral? If nurtured properly ignorance is a powerful ally.

Ok that’s my personal experience

I can vouch for that. I can definitely think of more than a couple situations like this where this happened for me too.

Veeco,

I think you are probably right when it comes to epee, but very very bad things tend to happen to novice foil fencers, in open competitions. (Assuming adults, and no age brackets to soften the initiation).

Well, my experience is certainly only for epee, as I have never fenced another weapon. But I think it might also be true to a certain extent in the other weapons. Though as you say, right of way does force a "cleaner" fencing than no right of way.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by CheekyCanuck

I was surprised to find fencers of such a higher caliber still competing in the D-and-under. To me it seemed as though they should have moved upward and onward. Now that I have won a few tournaments, against those very same fencers, I do plan to move toward a higher level (if I can ). I will not go to the D-and-under tournaments so that other fencers can have a chance.

I do the same thing, for the most part. But it's important to remember that there are some quite good fencers who are Ds, and that going "upward and onward" is difficult. It means fewer tournaments (or at least fewer tournaments close to home), and having little or no chance of winning at them, at least at first.

I've got a C, but som