Switching to French Grip...

[mrbiggs]

Just now in the shower, I had an idea, but I'd like input on it.

This is allllllll foil.

I've been having issues with point control, serious issues. I miss completely on about 5-8 points in an average DE bout. That's easily the difference between winning and losing. I'm doing the tennis ball thing, but it's not helping much, as my problem is not hitting straight, it's hitting after actions.

So I remember from way back that French grips are supposed to improve point control. My question is, would it be wise for me to switch to a French grip in order to help myself with my point?

If I was to switch, I'd have to get a new blade, and it would be quite a commitment, because I realize that it takes awhile to get used to French, then get used to pistol again. So do you think that temporarily training with a French grip would be beneficial?

[dramamine]

If you can hit fine when you are hitting a tennis ball, then either the problem is with the speed/size of your actions or with your distance. Switching to a french grip might help, but it might not.

What I would do if you have a coach or a friend who'd be willing to drill with you a bit, is do some very slow, simple drills. One fencer is enguarde and the other one searches for his blade, the fencer disengages and hits. Make the disengagement tight, but relaxed. Focus on your point the entire time. After a while, work your way up to 2 derobements, and then add a step. Make sure you put your point first, failing to do so can cause a lot of missed hits. After you get the hang of that, do some lunges, and eventually step lunges. Focus on beginning very slowly and getting the point towards the target, and then accelerating at the end. Practice doing a simple feint disengage, with a deep feint and small disengagement using the fingers.

The point control will improve as your distance and handwork improves. IMO a french grip is not needed to do this.

[howtobrew]

If you can hit fine when you are hitting a tennis ball, then either the problem is with the speed/size of your actions or with your distance. Switching to a french grip might help, but it might not.

munch

The point control will improve as your distance and handwork improves. IMO a french grip is not needed to do this.

I learned to fence twenty years ago on a french grip. When I took it up again last year I bought a pistol grip right away for POWER. And my aim sucked. And my hand and forearm cramped by each evenings end.
So, I went back to French. My aim improved right away, and the cramping stopped right away.

So, is French Grip better?
No, not necessarily. But it was better for me at that time in my development.
I think it is more accurate to say that my technique was/is better with a french grip, and now that I have learned to feel the blade with my thumb and index finger, I can probably go back to a pistol grip with better control than I had previously. There is too much support available in a typical piston grip - you end up holding like a gun.

Try it. Get a cheap electric epee from Absolute and try it for a while. It helped me a lot.

[rmyounis]

I know what everyone says, but I can't hit **** with a French grip...not that my point control is spectacular anyways

[remise]

I have kids that fence foil. Both of them fenced with the French grip and were deadly with it. However, they were always ONE POINT away from earning a letter, when they competed, so their coach made them switch to a pistol grip. Immediately, their point control went straight to ****.

While the pistol grip offers them power, they are both dealing with the frustration of having to 'relearn' how to steer a pistol grip. My daughter describes the pistol grips as,"trying to steer a battle axe with the thumb and forefinger..."

However, she is very young and her coach said that both children must be patient in these things, that it will come with time and practice. Hope this helps.

[garyhayenga]

Just now in the shower, I had an idea, but I'd like input on it.

This is allllllll foil.

I've been having issues with point control, serious issues. I miss completely on about 5-8 points in an average DE bout. That's easily the difference between winning and losing. I'm doing the tennis ball thing, but it's not helping much, as my problem is not hitting straight, it's hitting after actions.

So I remember from way back that French grips are supposed to improve point control. My question is, would it be wise for me to switch to a French grip in order to help myself with my point?

If I was to switch, I'd have to get a new blade, and it would be quite a commitment, because I realize that it takes awhile to get used to French, then get used to pistol again. So do you think that temporarily training with a French grip would be beneficial?

The key advantage to training with a french grip is that your footwork and distance improve. The french grip does not respond powerfully to manipulation with the wrist and outer-most fingers as it only responds to the forefinger and thumb and the middle finger. Thus the point *cannot* fly all over the place. The lack of emergency power in blade meetings then requires that the distance control is more precise so that the leverage and control with the blade does not require any power.

For these reasons learning to fence foil with a french grip is very beneficial. It may also be beneficial for you to train with a french grip for six months or so, but mainly for your sense of distance. You would then develop a much better understanding of what distance gives you the perfect leverage for blade actions (including disengages) because they won't work otherwise.

While your point control with the french grip will certainly improve this may not translate back into improved point control with a pistol grip, though improved distance will certainly help. It sounds like your problem is muscling the pistol grip, and once you have that habit if it continues it may not be as noticable with a french grip because the blade simply won't respond as much. But if you don't stop muscling the blade then when you go back to the pistol grip your blade will start going all over the place again.

So if your poor point control with a pistol grip could be due to poor distance, muscling the blade with the wrist and not using the forefinger and thumb properly. Training with a french grip could will improve the first one and definitely the last. But it won't help much if you are muscling the blade, when you switch back to a pistol grip.

If you learn initially with a french grip you learn to avoid situations that require extra power that you don't have, as you should. If you learn intitially with a pistol grip many people come to rely on that crutch of extra power that they shouldn't need. Ideally a pistol grip should be used exactly like a french grip except in (hopefully rare) situations where you have inadvertantly made a slight distance error and that extra power will bail you out.

I have no idea if this is helpful to you.

gary hayenga

[mrbiggs]

Thanks for everyone's opinions. I think I'm going to get a blade (I need one anyway) and spend a couple weeks seeing how I work with a French grip. I already own a grip, so I really don't have anything to lose. I haven't fenced with one in 3 years, but it should come back...

Improving my distance would also be a good idea, so even if this point control doesn't correctly translate, so long as I am improving, I am a happy camper.

[fencerontheline]

You are probably missing because of you're not keeping good distance.

Prepare your actions more, operate at a greater distance and rush less.

That's probably your issue... not the grip you're using.

Everything in fencing is distance and timing.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

A grip wont make the difference. Change your fencing. You change your fencing from the inside, not from the outside. Expect the changes you make on the outside (I.E different grips, shoes, voodoo charms) to make the smallest differences. Changes made on the inside (I.E footwork, technique, mental game, distance) make the BIGGEST differences.

[mrbiggs]

A grip wont make the difference. Change your fencing.

I'm not looking for a magic cure, I'm looking for something that WILL change my fencing, and I've heard that a French grip might do that.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I'm not looking for a magic cure, I'm looking for something that WILL change my fencing, and I've heard that a French grip might do that.

Man, using a french grip isnt going to change your fencing. If you can't hit after actions with a pistol, a french grip isnt going to change that. It might even make it worse. Do some footwork instead. Not just a little for warm up, but serious footwork. I'm talking about an hour or so of footwork, with minimal break time. Make it a habit. You can train for 9 hours a day, and the next day you won't see any results. It takes time. You may not even see the difference between your footwork one year and your footwork the next. Its a slow, boring, but very rewarding process.

[mrbiggs]

Man, using a french grip isnt going to change your fencing.

Ah.

That was my question.

[Mr Epee]

Ah.

That was my question.

Firstly,

Fencing with french grip WILL absolutely change your fencing.

When you are faced with the limitation of strength you will be forced to approach the game in a different way. This means increased compensation in other areas that were possibly neglected in your game before.

Things like distance, footwork, the ability to prepare your action ahead of time, disengages, absence of blade, and the like.

Try it for a couple of months, and if you don't feel like it helps anything, then you can always cut it down and slap an ortho grip back on it. You're only out 10 bucks, and you might learn something important.

(btw - 10 bucks is a very cheap lesson in fencing)

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Just now in the shower

Um.... why in the shower?

[fencerontheline]

Um.... why in the shower?

He musta been naked and holding something... thinking of the french grip...

[Go? Fencing?]

Try getting with a friend who can lend you a weapon with a french grip. Then practice a bit and see what happens. If you feel like it's helping, maybe go ahead and get one of your own. That way, you're not out any money for a little bit. Of course, if you really do need a new blade anyway, go with Mr Epee's suggestion:

Try it for a couple of months, and if you don't feel like it helps anything, then you can always cut it down and slap an ortho grip back on it. You're only out 10 bucks, and you might learn something important.

[Coup de Grace]

Go for it. I started on foil with a French grip. I think that has helped my Sabre point control.

[mrbiggs]

He musta been naked and holding something... thinking of the french grip...

Yes, a foil.

No, really,I just happened to be thinking about fencing in the shower because...I'm often thinking about fencing.

G?F? I don't have any friends who use a French grip, but I have some of my own. It's just a matter of getting a blade with a new tang.

[UTEpee]

if you'd like my two cents (this advice is probably worth much less than that), switching to french grip did in fact change my fencing(EPEE, but many of my experiences will transfer well to foil).
contrary to what other people have said, for me, when i switched to french after learning and fencing for a year with ortho, my point control got much much worse, not better. also somewhat contrary to others, my prise-de-fer actions and binds became much stronger than those with ortho. some of my actions also seem to be bigger than they need to be.
also, i found that not relying on leverage so much (it seems that ortho grips make you want to fight back against takes, instead of disengaging) made my distance better(backing off instead of pushing an advantage i dont have)and as a consequence i was setting up actions instead of reacting.

after some time, my point control is improving back to what it was with an ortho, but the other advantages of french are still there, and i attribute most of the problems i have with french grip to the re-training peroid for my muscles.

this is not to say that french grip will make you a better fencer, as if it did, nobody would use ortho. these are just my personal experiences, and they obviously differ rather strongly than experiences others have had with it.

[JackSparrow]

You change your fencing from the inside, not from the outside. Expect the changes you make on the outside (I.E different grips, shoes, voodoo charms) to make the smallest differences.

So you're saying that the 800n Leon Paul vodoo charm I bought recently may be a waste of money. I find that very hard to believe. At least there's still my lucky rabbit’s foot and a four-leaved clover to fall back on.