Fencing.net FAQ v1.1

[noodle]

updated stuff, added questions, can't delete my old post because i have to be able to edit it to delete it, and if i could edit it, i'd make the changes there instead. ( )
as per usual, i appreciate input and will change stuff if there are any corrections that need to be made.

Fencing101.com Questions

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General Fencing Questions

• Does my height (strength/speed/etc.) give me an advantage?
  

  
  Being tall is a distinct natural advantage when one is new. So is being fast, being a strong tactical thinker, being strong.
  
  There are lots of natural advantages one can use when they are just starting out. Once you get experience and technique tucked under your belt, though, natural advantages play second fiddle to form, technique, and proper execution of skills.
  

• Is shouting legal/sportsmanlike? Why do people who fence shout so much?
  

  
  Shouting after a touch is legal. Whether or not it is sportsmanlike is an issue that can't be defined in any rulebook and varies based on personal opinion. Shouting or otherwise talking to or distracting your opponent while fencing is not legal.
  
  Some people shout to let off steam after an intense touch as a celebration. Some people shout to try and sway the referee. A good referee, though, should not be swayed by such attempts. Some people shout to intimidate their opponents.
  

• How does the USFA Classification/Rating System work?
  

  
  A classification is a letter, A to E, which indicates the relative skill of a fencer. The classification is accompanied by a two digit number which indicates the year in which the classification was earned. Classifications are valid for four years, after which they revert down to the next lowest classification, or a "U" for an unclassified fencer, if the classification has not been re-earned in the four year period.
  
  Classifications can be earned by participating and doing well in USFA sanctioned tournaments. Here is a chart which shows the system for determining the strength of a tournament and which classifications are given out based on this strength.
  
  In addition to the classification, the USFA has a points system. In order to earn points, a fencer has to place in the top 40% of the field in a tournament which will give points (Division 1, Veteran, Junior, Cadet, Y14, Y12, Y10 NACs; U20, U17 Junior Olympic Championships; Division 1, Veterans, U19, U16, U14, Y12, Y10 Summer National Championships; Y14, Y12, Y10 Super Regional Youth Tournaments; and International Senior "A" Tournaments of sufficient strength factor [see the Athlete's Handbook, section 3.5] ), to a maximum of the top 32 fencers. If the top 40% of the field is a fraction, the fraction is dropped and points are awarded. The number of points awarded depends on the place earned and the strength factor of the tournament if applicable. These points are used to seed fencers in USFA national competitions, to qualify for the National Championships and the Junior Olympic Championships, to determine the group of athletes who can consider entry into World Cup and Cadet "B" tournaments, and to select athletes for other international tournaments.
  

• What is a Distance Parry?
  

  
  It is the short and often confusing name for a commonplace action. An attacker can carry Right of Way until the end of their initial attack. If the attacker finishes their initial attack and misses (becaues it was adeptly avoided by the defender using carefully timed footwork, or the attacker simply can't hit the broad side of a barn), the defender then has a chance to immediately take Right of Way by making an attack of their own. This process by which the defender pulls distance causing the attacker to miss and then immediately seizing Right of Way is often referred to as a "distance parry" and is not an actual parry.
  

• Can I qualify for Division 2 and 3 events at Sectional Qualifiers?
  

  
  This was once true, but was removed. Now, in order to qualify for Division 2 or 3 at Sectional qualifiers, you must qualify for Division 1-A (top 25% of the field). This automatically qualifies one for all applicable events below it.
  

• Am I required to have my name on my lame/jacket/leg for tournaments?
  

  
  Only in national events or events which are qualification paths to these national level events. Qualification events include Divisional and Sectional qualifiers. This is the rule. Whether this rule is enforced is entirely up to the referees.
  

  
  

Weapon-Specific Questions:

• Foil: Does forward movement constitute an attack?
  

  
  

  Originally Posted by USFA Rulebook, 2002 Revision C t.56.a.3

  The attack with a step-forward-lunge or a step-forward-flèche is correctly executed when the extending of the arm precedes the end of the step forward and the initiation of the lunge or the flèche.

  To briefly summarize the rules: not necessarily. Yes in the way that one can have the attack without extending the arm until the end of the advance on the advance lunge. No in the way that people can't literally run down the strip and expect to retain Right of Way. The skill in which most people believe Right of Way is held by forward movement is called the "march" and more information on the march can be found here. More information can be found in the FOC Referee Handbook.
  

• Foil/Epee: What is a "Flick/Flick hit/Flick attack"? How do flicks work in foil with the new (2004) box timings?
  

  
  A flick is an attack which is executed by applying a force on the blade which bends it in a circular/whipping manner in order to maneuver around an insufficient parry to still hit. Flicks in foil are difficult to hit with, though, as the bending of the blade makes the third dimension (depth) a much more important element to making the attack land. Flicks in epee are a little easier, as they're much more shallow and used to maneuver around the bell to the forearm.
  
  The new timing changes make flicking to the back a near impossibility in foil. Flicks, though, are still viable and successfully executed, but their frequency and usefulness have been reasonably decreased.
  

• Sabre: What is a "whipover"?
  

  
  A whipover occurs when an attacker makes a strong attack, is parried, but the tip of the blade bends around the parry to still hit valid target area and causes a light to go on. This happens often in sabre and is comparable to the flick attack in foil and epee. New boxes have a whipover prevention circuitry, which will prevent some small whipovers, but not nearly all.
  

• Epee: I'm new and was wondering if I could have some basic pointers?
  

  
  At the lower levels of epee, success can be easily found by doing three simple things: keeping good distance, keep your point on their arm, and have patience. When your oppnent shows an opening on their arm for whatever reason, try and sneak your tip in to hit. If you're getting pushed around on the strip, turn up the aggression to prevent running off the back of the strip. Be sure not to have your guard near your body; keep it halfway into an extension. Don't be shy to initiate some attacks, but make sure to deal with their blade when doing so (beat/bind/etc) as an attack without one will definitely draw a counterattack. Above all, keep being patient. A slow, controlled bout will frustrate a lot of opponents.
  

• Sabre: I'm new and was wondering if I could have some basic pointers?
  

  
  The most effective parry in sabre is the one you do not have to make. If you have right of way, keep it and hit them. If you don't, keep your distance moderately quickly, wait for them to launch their final attack, jump out of the way quickly (a "distance parry") to make them miss, and then take right of way again for yourself. Sabre is quick, it is easy to get stuck in a rut doing the same thing over and over. Think about what you are doing between actions. Don't be afraid to change lines, cut in different places, disengage, or be defensive. When you are on the attack, though, you need to do your absolute best to try and hit them, as it is much easier to land an attack in sabre than successfully parry.
  

• Foil: I'm new and was wondering if I could have some basic pointers?
  

  
  Foil is the toughest weapon to characterize in a few sentences. Make sure to keep good distance, only getting close enough to hit when you intend on hitting. Disengages, especially a 'one-two' attack which is essentially two disengages, will prove useful. Foil is a tricky game, so make sure you scout out your opponent by throwing shallow attacks to see how they respond. Only make a committed attack if you feel you can actually score with the attack, not to find out what they will do. Under the new 2004 timings, counterattacks will prove to be more useful, so consider throwing a few into your game.
  

• Epee: What is pommeling/posting? How can I use it effectively?
  

  
  Pommeling/posting is done when using a French Grip foil or epee and holding the grip by the very end (on the pommel, hence the term pommeling) or near the end (posting) as opposed to the traditional method where the hand is close to the bell (as shown in the previous picture).
  
  The idea of pommeling/posting is to gain a little extra distance, which is much more useful in epee than foil. The strengths of this strategy are the extra distance gained and a slight increase in point control. The disadvantages to this strategy are the loss of power associated with the blade. To pommel/post effectively, the strategy one should use is to try and avoid blade contact, especially strong beats, by disengaging, coupeing, and keeping good distance. Points are generally scored on the counterattack or arm shot when an opening is found. Attacking can be effective also with the extra distance gained, but control over the attack is often lost when a strong beat parry is used to defend against it.
  

• Foil/Sabre: What is Point in Line?
  

  
  The point in line exists as the highest level of priority. If it is established correctly, the opponent must avoid it, remove it, or have the fencer with the point in line to no longer have the point in line.
  
  A point in line exists when a fencer has the following conditions met prior to an opponent’s attack:
  

  • weapon arm fully extended
    
  • a straight line from the point of the weapon to the shoulder
    
  • point aimed at valid target
    
  • no movement of the blade except to derobe the opponent’s attempt to find the blade
    
  • is standing still, moving forward, or moving back
    

  
  So, for your PIL to have and retain ROW, you must satisfy all of the conditions listed BEFORE your opponent lauches an attack. You must continue to hold these conditions through your opponent's attack, until your tip lands on their lame. If you break line or disengage, you lose PIL.
  
  Yes, you heard right. You lose PIL if you disengage or move your tip or break your arm. You don't lose it for moving forward or backward. Establishing an unwaivering PIL and getting your opponent to impale themselves on your blade is highly unlikely to happen, as you probably already know. Here's the trick--if your opponent attempts to take or beat your blade when you're in PIL, they are in preparation. If you simply disengage around their take to hit them or break line to start an immediate attack, you have Right of Way. But naturally, there are ways to make fool someone into disengaging/breaking line, and so on and so forth.
  

• Foil/Sabre: What are the changes that were made to scoring machines for the 2004-2005 season?
  

  
  The foil lockout time decreases from 350 milliseconds to 300 milliseconds. Lock out is the window of time after a fencer scores a touch that the opponent may also register a touch.
  The foil debounce time for valid touches increases from 1-5 milliseconds to 15 milliseconds. Debounce is the amount of time that the foil tip must remain depressed to register a touch.
  
  The sabre lockout time decreases from 350-400 milliseconds to 120 milliseconds.
  

• Sabre: Has the change in box timings (2004-2005 Season) changed the way Sabre Right of Way is called?
  

  
  With the tightening up of Sabre timings this season, a lot of Referees have started to rely primarily on the lights on the boxes to determine who scored a touch. If its two lights, they feel, the action will either be definitely simultaneous or definitely one person's attack, since the timing is so small, there is no time for a proper preparation attack to land and still have two lights turn on.
  
  This is simply untrue. Right of Way has not changed at all and it is completely possible for someone to score preparation attacks and still have two lights come on.
  

• Sabre/Foil: Are low line attacks, (Sabre) point attacks, or (Foil) attacks where the tip is not directly pointed at target still considered attacks?
  

  
  Yes.
  
  

  Originally Posted by FOC FAQ

  "The attack is the INITIAL OFFENSIVE action made by EXTENDING the arm and CONTINUOUSLY THREATENING the opponent's target . . ."
  
  INITIAL -- you must start your action before your opponent. This does not at all mean who started moving first.
  
  OFFENSIVE -- you must be going toward your opponent. Attempting a parry is not offensive.
  
  EXTENDING -- for those of you who know grammar, this is a gerund; it connotes action. The arm never has to become extended to have a correctly executed attack. To have an extending arm, your hand must be going away from your body.
  
  CONTINUOUSLY -- non-stop. You must keep attacking. If you "break" your attack -- stop moving forward or hold back your arm -- you are no longer attacking and, if your opponent starts an attack of her own, your continuation may become a counter attack. The attacker who lunges has the attack end when the front foot lands.
  
  THREATENING -- you must present a danger to your opponent. This word really has two parts to its definition. One is the relationship of distance between the fencers in determining whether one is threatening. If your opponent is within advance lunge distance, you can be threatening; you can start an attack. If your opponent is beyond advance lunge distance, you cannot be threatening; you cannot start an attack - even if your opponent were to remain completely immobile, your attack would not start until you were at advance lunge distance. The other part that is important in defining this word is that your point (for foil) or your blade (for sabre) is going toward your opponent's valid target. It is a very common misconception that, for example, a foil attack requires the point to be "aimed" at the valid target before an attack starts.
  
  Source

• Foil: What is the deal with chest protectors?
  

  
  Because of the new timings the FIE are widely testing, people have discovered that the modified debounce time has caused inconsistancies with solid hits. With these new timings, if one hits straight onto a solid, hard surface, there is a chance that the tip will not register a light. There are several possible reasons:
  
  

  • The tip bends quickly, touches the poorly taped/insulated barrel to the lame, and shorts itself out. No light. This is likely to be the largest problem for people.
    
  • The tip hits at an unusual angle, bends through, and rolls such that the tip is no longer being depressed. The tip is not pressed down for long enough to satisfy the new debounce time. No light.
    
  • The tip hits hard and bounces quickly and forcefully off of the chest protector. The tip wasn't depressed long enough to satisy the debounce time. No light.
    
  • The tip hits hard and stays on target, but because of the force and the surface, the tip vibrates, bounces, or doesn't land smoothly in some other fashion. The circuit closes, opens, and closes again, causing the tip to ground out. No light.
    

  
  Because of this insurgence in popularity and the potential to abuse them, Chest Protectors must be worn underneath the jacket. They may not be worn between the jacket and the lame. This is a cardable offence.
  

Armouring Questions:

• Abbreviations/Acronyms:
  

  
  

  • BG: Blue Gauntlet
    
  • SG: Saint George
    
  • LP: Leon Paul
    
  • BF: Blaise Freres
    
  • LM: Lamment
    
  • WKC: Wersburg Kirchbaum
    
  • FS: Fransous Scaroni Forge
    
  • FL/LN: France Lames
    
  • FP: Fencing Post
    
  • BMI: Vniti
    
  • StM/SM: Sportservice
    
  • DN: Dinamo
    
  • HP: Hostin Plus
    
  • JL: Shanghai Jianli
    
  • TCA: Triplette Competition Arms
    

• What is Maraging Steel?
  

  
  Maraging Steel is a type of steel that most FIE blades are made of. It is known for its superior strength, resilience, and resistance to corrosion. Here are a few other points about Maraging Steel:
  

  • Ultra-high strength at room temperature
    
  • Simple heat treatment, which results in minimum distortion
    
  • Superior fracture toughness compared to quenched and tempered steel of similar strength level
    
  • Low carbon content, which precludes decarburization problems
    

• What are the differences among the colored Blaise Freres (BF) Maraging blades?
  

  
  BF Blue blades are the most flexible, most resilient, and the lightest. They are also the most expensive. They, though, are much more likely to take a radical bend if it deals a hit that has enough force behind it, for whatever reason.
  
  BF White blades are much more stiff and a little heavier. They are slightly more succeptible to the everyday bends, but when they take a big hit, they're much less likely to take a radical, deforming bend.
  
  BF Gold blades are a happy average of the qualities of the above two.
  
  The colors of the blades are a result of the gaseous environment they are tempered in. The colored coating is also helps to prevent oxidation of the underlying metal. Other information can be found in the Fencing.Net Equipment Review Section
  

• Are wrist straps/martingales legal?
  

  
  The wrist strap is only illegal when used with french grips.
  

• Are Spanish/etc. grips legal?
  

  
  No. Any grip with orthopedic aids that can be held in more than one position or that can be held more than 2cm from the inside surface of the guard is illegal.
  

• How Do I: Wash a Lame?
  

  
  Take 1 capful of Woolite and 1 capful (equal parts) of Windex and add to 1/3 sink full of lukewarm water.
  
  Place lame' in sink and allow to soak for 5 minutes, longer if it's REALLY dirty.
  
  Gently massage lame' in solution of water, remove, then rinse, rinse, rinse, fully in cold water, until no suds are seen. Allow excess water to roll off and place lame' on cloth towel.
  
  Roll lame into towel and press gently to remove more water. Then hang to dry.
  
  Do not dry in direct sunlight or outside, and do not use a hair dryer.
  
  A stainless steel lame' can be washed as often as you like, but a copper lame' can only be washed one time a week, max.
  

• How Do I: Wash a Mask?
  

  
  Take 1 capful of Woolite and 1 capful (equal parts) of Windex and add to 1/3 sink full of lukewarm water.
  
  Place mask in sink and allow to soak for 5 minutes, longer if it's REALLY dirty. Make sure mask is face up with the bib in the water.
  
  Stretch & massage bib. Rub water into inset of mask (padding), remove, then rinse, rinse, rinse, fully in cold water, until no suds are seen. Water can touch the grill. Allow excess water to roll off.
  
  Place mask on large cloth towel, dry grill and ring bib into towel. Push with towel pads to dry until only damp to touch & dry grill. Allow to dry. Can use a hair dryer for speedy dry.
  

[Zilverzmurfen]

Excellent job Noodle!

I'd just like to add the URL for StM.
(I do know there's a dispute if they are in fact the same company who makes the Dynamo blades but...well, at least they have their own website.)

[Schiavona]

Noodle, shouting during a phrase is illegle? Do you have a citation for this? Otherwise thanks for doing a great (and thankless) job.

By the way, very funny avatar!

[noodle]

i'm pretty sure that question was put in the first version after that big rash of posts on the sportsmanship of shouting, etc.. i believe i got it from there that its theoretically possible for someone to be carded for shouting durring a phrase, though nobody does. i tried searching for the explanation but there's too much to sift through.

and thanks

[oso97]

take your pick - Disorderly fencing, disorderly behavior on strip, couple of other possibilities....

Of course, I'm referring to a situation where the fencer uses the scream to distract the opponent, not as part of making the touch.

[AndrewH]

Originally Posted by oso97

take your pick - Disorderly fencing, disorderly behavior on strip, couple of other possibilities....

Of course, I'm referring to a situation where the fencer uses the scream to distract the opponent, not as part of making the touch.

I hate people who do that. I was watching the NJ high school state championships back in Feb, and our sabre guys were fencing a school who shall remain unnamed. During a slight pause in the bout, the opposing fencer screamed loudly, then attacked as our guy thought "wtf?". No card, no penalty whatsoever. I've also seen it happen a few times in high school epee. No penalties there either.

I'm sooo happy that college fencers don't even think about trying that kind of thing.

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by oso97

take your pick - Disorderly fencing, disorderly behavior on strip, couple of other possibilities....

Of course, I'm referring to a situation where the fencer uses the scream to distract the opponent, not as part of making the touch.

So, you're saying that a scream to distract an opponent shouldn't be allowed, but an appel (stamping the foot) to distract an opponent is? I've never heard of this before. I think the disorderlies are streching if they are used to cover screaming to distract.

[noodle]

big difference between tapping your foot and screaming "CHAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGEEEEEEEE!!!" at the top of your lungs.

[Schiavona]

Of course, you are right. BUT, using a, shall we say, vocalization to distract your opponent should be allowed. When I was first taught, lo these many years ago, "hey-la!" and yells happened before and during the attack, not after. We were also taught that words were a big no-no.

I really don't advocate bainshee screaming, but I've never seen a rule against distracting an opponent and don't like the idea of bending other rules to fit this instance. That's all.

[noodle]

perhaps, and this is why some of the lesser ones get through cards. small vocalizations don't really apply to the cards oso97 described. but if you take a scream done in celebration after the touch, and put that on strip into an action, that should definitely be a card.

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by noodle

perhaps, and this is why some of the lesser ones get through cards. small vocalizations don't really apply to the cards oso97 described. but if you take a scream done in celebration after the touch, and put that on strip into an action, that should definitely be a card.

Again, why?

[noodle]

if it was expressly allowed, do you not think saburers would scream from "fence", straight through to after the touch celebration? our tournaments would be so loud we'd drive off spectators

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by noodle

if it was expressly allowed, do you not think saburers would scream from "fence", straight through to after the touch celebration?

True, saburers didn't even cross my mind

Originally Posted by noodle

our tournaments would be so loud we'd drive off spectators

Spectators!? Your tournaments have spectators!?

I just don't remember anyplace in the rules where screaming to distract your opponent is expressly forbidden.

Should we start a new thread, "Screaming to distract, good or evil?"

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by noodle

if it was expressly allowed, do you not think saburers would scream from "fence", straight through to after the touch celebration? our tournaments would be so loud we'd drive off spectators

I'm actually interested in a real rules based answer to this question, rather then just conjecture.

a) Can you get carded for vocalising during a bout?
b) What is the penalty?
c) What rule is applied?

James.

[noodle]

shrug, as i said, it was discussed before and i looked but couldn't find it. though i tried. maybe you try looking