foil: parry-off-target repost

[luv2fence]

Right attacks, Left parries the blade to off-target
area, causing a white light. Left then repostes to
to a taget area on Right, lighting a colored light.

I am aware that repostes must be immediate.

Can you help me with rule references, experiences
of how Refs actually call this, or a thread that
already covered this?

I am observing quite a variation in the way this is
called, so maybe I need the proper criteon.

luv2fence

[shango]

As far as I know, if the lights were able to go on in such a short amount of time under the new timings its allowed.

[WhipLash]

as long as both lights are up, both hits occur within the lockout timing and should be called as attack off target, parry riposte touche.

[DHCJr]

All you have to do is look at the first line. All else has no meaning.

Originally Posted by luv2fence

Right attacks, Left parries the blade to off-target
luv2fence

Anyone heard of insufficient parry. No touch!

[kalivor]

If the off-target light comes on before or during the parry, then the call ought to be "attack off-target."

If the off-target light comes on after the blade contact (when the riposte has already commenced) then the correct call is "attack-parry-riposte-remise" with the point given to the on-target riposte, and the off-target light is caused by the remise.

I also have absolutely no idea why anybody is mentioning the new timings in earlier responses. New timings only affect the materiality of the touch, and have no other impact on the referee's decision.

[WhipLash]

i mentioned the lockout timing, not the new timings. it has an impact on whether the second like will light up.

i was under the impression that as long as the attacker's blade is deflected off target it counts as a parry? in this case there was an obvious deflection, isn't there

[jBirch]

Depends on the particulars of how the off target occurred, but given what you've posted, I'd say attack, off-target.

The other way to interpret the action is attack, parry, remise, riposte but I'd have to see the attack fail due to the parry, then a renewed effort to force through to the off-target before I'd give the riposte.

I don't think rules citations are going to help because the problem is that the ref has to interpret this particular action in the context of the phrase. If they saw a parry rather then a glise then it's the riposte that wins. If they saw a glise then it's the attack to off-target that wins. Some refs hear a contact of blades as a parry and anything that follows as a continuation. Some refs want to see the blade parried before they'll call a parry and call anything that doesn't parry it as a mere meeting of the blades.

Remember, you are fencing two people: your opponent AND the ref. Figure out how the ref is perceiving the action and tailor your fencing accordingly.

Hope this helps.

James.

[luv2fence]

Donald,

I do not understand your comments.

I have not heard of "insufficient parry";
can you explain. Mal-parry?

I meant to describe Left's parry as very
good, so good that it took Right's blade
completely off target ( e.g. Right's point
touched Left's leg).

I thought the question might turn on the
reposte: when begun (?), when ended (?)
etc.

Sorry if I did not describe my scenario in
enough detail.

[DHCJr]

No, you describe it very well. You have said that you did NOT parry it good enough to have your opponent miss you completely. If you parry, so it hits you, you have not parried enough.

If you had described the action as parry, your opponent replaces the point towards you and you reposte, then it becomes, did you make an immediate reposte, becomes important.

Look at T.7. The parry is the defensive action made with the weapon to prevent an offensive action arriving. It arrived off-target, but it did arrive, so the parry was not successful.

The Off-target of an attack stops the action.

[luv2fence]

Donald,
Thanks for the fast reply.

I read t.7 and it does seem as you say.
They did not qualify arrival with "on target",
as they have elsewhere (sabre).

While reading, I discovered t.48, which seems
even more detailed on this subject. However,
does "thereafter" mean in real-time or fencing-time.

I think it means real-time. So with t.7 and t.48,
we say "attack off-taget no touch", then why are
the electric boxes allowing Left's colored light.
All subsequent touches could be cut off within
1/1000 of a second of any off-target.

What am I missing here?

[telkanuru]

From the sound of it (and depending how close the hand was to the chest on the parry), it would most probably be called attack is parried, riposte arrives, remise off target.

[luv2fence]

Donald and others,
I think I can answer my own question on
why the electric box cannot stop all
lights after an off-target:

Attack (with ROW) begins,
counter-attack begins and arrives off-target,
Attack arrives on-target.

The colored light for the attack must come on,
to allow the Ref to award the point.

On the strip today, I (Left) was awarded the point
because the Ref saw a remise by my opponent.
If there was a remise, I agree with the Ref.
But I did not see a remise and I was interested in
the tougher question. Now, that question is looking
simpler.

Thank you all for your help.

[DHCJr]

I agree that the touch stands with his call, but it was a different interpretation of what happened than your call.

They felt you had pushed the blade far enough so it would have missed. That is a judgement, which can be different between different people from different angles. Not being there, I don't know which I would have thought.

This is a little off-subject, but a technique, that I was never able to do well, which is one reason, I am behind the table is when you parry is to hold the parry, while doing the reposte. This forces your opponent to change lines for them to do a remise, making it more obvious.

Now that you got a lucky call, at the worst possible moment, your opponent will get a lucky call to balance the force.

[CvilleFencer]

I am far from a top-level judge but the way I tend to look at it is this. When an attack is parried and their is an off target light on the side of the attacker I look to see if the off target happened before or after the defender released the blade after the parry. In other words if you hold the parry till the off target hit or guide it there before beginning your reposte then the attack is off target. If you parry, release or with opposition begin your reposte before the off target hit then the touch is yours with the reposte.

If you parry so that the attack is stopped or avoided and begin your reposte and then the opponent begins his remise by continuing in the same or a new line then he is attempting a remise that will be out of time. I would still call that situation Attack/Parry/Reposte and if the other guys asks about his remise I will add that it was out of time and occurred after the end of the phrase. I hope that made some sense...

[epeezack]

From what I understand, the white light imediatly stops the action, therefore, the colored light dosn't count.

[Madmartigan]

If the ripose was a direct ripose = right attack, parry-ripose from the left; left touch = point to the left.

however,

If the ripose was a compound or an indirect ripose = right attack failed, then remise in time from the right. Off target... no touch.

It takes a good ref to see the intention of a fencer.

[Wizardly]

Originally Posted by epeezack

From what I understand, the white light imediatly stops the action, therefore, the colored light dosn't count.

Dealing with ROW, you have to take the hits in context. I'm afraid your understanding is wrong (in a general sense - there are counter examples in special cases).

As for rule citations:
t.57, t.60 (1c), t.60(2f) seem to be relevent.

As for personal experience:
I'd reitterate Kalivor with DHCJr's second post (re: mal parry) being a special case (parries are often sufficient that don't necessarily seem to be as it is VERY easy to replace the point back onto the target that has been displaced from the target due to the dynamics of the action - that is to say a remise).

[Aestro]

Originally Posted by epeezack

From what I understand, the white light imediatly stops the action, therefore, the colored light dosn't count.

don't direct completely to the box. There are situations in which the first touch scored won't be the one that counts, such as a parry-riposte-remise. Even if the riposte finishes after the remise, so long as it was started in proper time (a riposte which comes slowly or hits a farther target, for example), right-of-way would still count above which light went off first. I've lost several points to a strong/quick remise combined with poor judging.

The distinction a judge has to make is whether the parry a) actually moved the attack sufficiently and b) did so BEFORE the attack landed (i.e. wasn't blade contact as the tip hit them, followed by a "riposte" which would then be ruled a counter-attack).

[KD5MDK]

There's also the possability of the parry deflecting the weapon to the floor, which would eliminate the call of parry-insufficient, certainly.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by jBirch

The other way to interpret the action is attack, parry, remise, riposte but I'd have to see the attack fail due to the parry, then a renewed effort to force through to the off-target before I'd give the riposte.

I agree with this. If it is one attack, i.e. a lunge, that is straight and unstopping, but just hits off target, then it is attack off target. But, if the fencer remises, changes lines, stops their lunge, etc., then I think it would be a remise.

If a fencer is having attacks land on him off-target, and the directors are not calling it parry-riposte, changing the form of his parry would be a good idea.