Was I in the wrong???

[Fencergrl]

I had something happen today while practicing that I want some opinions on.
Here's what happened.....

My opponent came in with a chip on his shoulder. Since he was so angry, his blade work was all over the place, so naturally I was scoring on him and this didn't improve his mood.

Fine... I'm a big girl I can handle myself. Normally when someone gets too out of control I mention something either directly to them or the coach. This guy is deaf, doesn't read lips and is therefore difficult to communicate with especially while fencing, so I let it go.... everyone's entitled to a bad day.

There wasn't very many people around, so I was mainly fencing him, rather than go home early.

The layout in this club isn't ideal, as the scoring boxes are at the end of the strips. I always let this particular fencer face the scoring boxes, as I can hear the buzzer and he can't. So he know who scored, but I don't ( I just know someone scored).

We were in a bout, I heard the light go off (I didn't know if it was ours or someone else's), but I saw my opponent backed up to his start line, so I stayed at the back end of my strip, took a step back and glanced up at the scoring box. Neither of us scored, so it was someone else's box that went off.

Next thing I know, he was charging at me and about four feet away, so I raised my point. He hit it so hard he bounced off of my epee and ended up on his ***.

The two coaches turned around and saw him on his *** rubbing his chest. I explained that I glanced at the lights, and he charged me. I reacted without thinking and raised my arm. They told me I should never turn my head on an opponent and in a tournament I would be given a yellow card.

Gosh... it's hard to feel like I was in the wrong. It felt like he was taking a cheap shot.
What do people think?

I felt that in a real tournament, I would be listening for a halt, and wouldn't need to turn my head. I also felt we were far apart enough that he wasn't a threat. I realize that it's not a good habit to turn your head every time the light goes off.

I was a little bothered that HIS actions weren't addressed, not only did it seem to be bad manners, but not very safe.

I was using my FIE BF blade today (something I never use in practice), but the tip on my cheap practice blade didn't seem sensitive enough. I have been thinking of replacing my cheap blade because it feels ready to break (I have no experience in this, just a gut feeling).

I *THINK* that if I used my regular practice blade it would have broken off with the force of a 140 lb, 20 year charging me at full speed and getting thumped square on the chest.... but perhaps I'm wrong.

I feel unsettled about the whole practice. Last weekend he came in last place in a tournament., so he's probably not feeling good about his skills. I like the guy, but I'm thinking of telling my coach, I need to fence anyone else but him. I don't think his anger was personal, but I don't feel like we're fencing anymore…. we're fighting…. he's attacking and I'm defending and I'm hurting him. I don't feel good about it.

Anyway … I didn't have fun today fencing and left early (he kept wanting to fence me and I declined after I realized I wasn't learning anything or having fun).

Nuff yapping.... lets hear what you think.

[ThatReallyHurt]

Hmm... I had a somewhat similar experience in my club.

If there's someone at your club that keeps doing something that worries or bothers you, try to bring it up with them. Failing that, go to your coach - not only are they responsible for training, they're also the perfect people to spot dangerous/incorrect behaviour. Has anyone mentioned this fellow to your coach before?

Personally, I don't think you did anything inherently wrong - no, you probably shouldn't turn your head during a bout, but you simply raising the point of your epee shouldn't have knocked him on his butt unless he was terribly off balance or doing something else poorly.

If I'm fencing at my club (dry or electric) and my opponent isn't looking at me or has their weapon arm hanging loosely down at their side, I'm going to stop fencing to see what's going on. Tournaments are a little different, but yeah... I don't think you did anything wrong...

And if he's all bent out of shape because he came in last in a tournament, well... that's his loss.

[Cipher]

Frankly, I have never heard of anyone getting a yellow card for turning your head unless it was completely around, exposing the unprotected area of the back of your head. And if all you had to do was raise your point, then it's more than likely his fault for running into it. I mean, if you hadn't turned your head, just stood there and raised your point into his charge the same thing would have happened unless he was purposely waiting for you to turn before he charged. If that is the case I would have ejected him from the building if I were the coach. Just be thankful that no one was hurt beyond the bruise he most likely has on his chest. Speak to your coach about the issue to see if he has a solution. Otherwise, you should tell the kid the issue you have with his actions and refuse to fence with him if he is going to be like that. Angry opponents are never good opponents.

[penguin_2000]

Let it go... by your story, you did nothing wrong. Its unfortunate that the coaches didn't see it that way.

Regarding out of control fencers... I just don't fence them. There was once a guy in my Univ. club who's ideas of the rules were slightly skewed... he was convinced that it was a defender's responsibility to get out of the way when the attacker performs a Braveheart-style charge with running start (i.e. very dangerous fleche). He knocked me over numerous times and once knee-ed me in the head when I ducked his point. After that I told him I didn't want to fence him anymore because he didn't know the rules. And that was that.

[Templar147]

The way you described it, it wasn't your fault. As we are taught, you fence until halt - as you were in practice, and had no judge, the only real way to self judge is to have both fencers involved. If your space/gym doesn't have a centrally located box and you plan on fencing someone who can't hear (and isn't fencing in a dignified manner) you need to grab a coach or a neutral person to judge the bouts or risk having the same thing repeated...

on the plus side, you mess with the bull and you get the horns, so if that guy wants to bum rush you and get his rear handed to him over and over and risk injury, at least he is the one who is getting hurt and not you. (Not that that is a "good" thing, but you know what i mean. He is making his own bed, and i suggest you bring this up with a superior in your club to at least watch a bout and tell this guy to calm down and pay attention)

[Charon]

Yes, you should have a word with the coach and yes, he was taking a cheap shot by the sound of it. Even if he'd only backed off so he could try and take you unawares, its a stupid move on his part.
Stupid because you've still got a blade in your hand. He must have realised the risk.
Just out of interest, i've seen a fencer (sometime in the 80's) lose an A grade by turning to look at the box. So did his opponent, but the opponent reacted better the there being no lights and scored the winning hit. No mention was made of any offence.
You'll find many fencers have a tendancy to look at the box, even if its only once i a while



Nick

[Schiavona]

If your coaches don't like people turning around on the strip they should move the boxes. If you are fencing electric without a referee, of course you want to see the box! The boxes in a salle *should be* placed so that the fencers can see them without twisting themselves arround.

By the way, good reflexes!

[Fencergrl]

By the way, good reflexes![/QUOTE]

Thanks! I'm actually proud of that part! I hadn't even realized I got my arm out till he was on the floor. I also had not idea you could knock someone on their butt by just letting them spear themselves... if this was real he would be dead.

That adrenaline of having a real attack gave be an inkling of what this sport used to be about.

[Fencergrl]

Thanks for everyone's feed back. I needed a reality-check before I dealt with this.
I am going to talk to the coaches, as this is a club safety issue. It was a good suggestion to have a coach watch us fence for awhile.

It is fortunate he behaved this way with someone who was able to handle it. However, just because I can, doesn't mean I should have to.

As a footnote….

My husband laughed when he found out that I knocked some kid on his butt (I'm just over 5'-0" with a full head of silver hair and the kid is about 5'-8", 19 year-old full of p*** and vinegar). After it happened, part of me wanted to laugh and tell him that it served him right, because it sure felt like a cheap shot at the time and I don't take well to bullies.

[Sildar]

I agree with most of the above comments; if someone hurts themselves because they ran into your point so hard it hurt, THEY are the ones being unsafe. On the other hand, I do make an effort not to turn around or look away without remaining at least peripherally aware of my opponent, just because someone might do something as wreckless as your opponent did. Your action was correct, fencingwise.

I'd also agree that it's preferable not to fence with wreckless individuals. And if you have to, be extremely wary while you do so.

[luv2fence]

You are justified in your reactions.

However, you may consider trying to
develop a personal raport before
fencing starts, during stretching.

At a minimum, you want him to think
of you as a person and practice mate,
not just a masked oponent.
Most important: react to safety concerns
and specific dangerous conditions.

Though safety is most important, I would not
start the conversation with this. First, get an
agreement that he will help you develope your
skills and you will help him develope his. Then
move on to safety. Much later (another conversation),
talk about style. Carry a pen and note pad in your
fencing gear.

Anyone gets more excited on the strip,
so do not expect complete behaviour change
on the first bout.

I take the help-each-other approach with all
of my club-mates and it works really well.

[Zilverzmurfen]

I have never heard of anyone getting a yellow card for turning your head...

Turning your head is not an offense. Turning your back to your opponent, however, is a yellow card offense the first time (t.21).

[Fencergrl]

However, you may consider trying to
develop a personal raport before
fencing starts, during stretching.

At a minimum, you want him to think
of you as a person and practice mate,
not just a masked oponent. l.

I agree with you completely, and I have done this. I am one of the few people who takes the time and effort to talk to him, so we talk and fence often.

This time was different … I don't know why…. Perhaps this was his idea of stepping up his fencing a notch- he's young and probably didn't realize that he was behaving way too aggressive.

Last time he was fencing he got hit hard (my someone other than I). He tends to walk into the blade, so it makes it hard to judge distance, and how hard to hit. I know… I've given him some hard painful hits myself- completely unintentional. I watch that and aim for a nice light touch... then he steps forward last minute and you end up poking him real hard.

Perhaps I gave him a hard hit (or enough of them last time) and decide to give me a dose of my own medicine (not realizing that his actions/fencing are contributing to his collection of bruises). I'm only speculating… he didn't behave mad off the strip, he wanted to keep fencing me, after I signaled, one more point… but he behaved like a crazed lunatic on the strip.

If he thinks I'm deliberately hitting him hard, I think it might be better for his coach to talk to him. I do not have this problem with anyone else I fence, and he does get hit hard by other fencers; so I can only conclude it is his style of fencing that needs to be modified and not mine.

If there's something I need to modify, I will work on it with the coach; so having her watch us fence would be a good way to handle it. He doesn't have to know that I consider his behavior over the top, this can be treated as skills training… because essentially that's what we're dealing with. He is really a sweet guy, and like I said, I don't think he realized that he was behaving in a threatening aggressive or unsportsman like manner.

If this doesn't work, I just won't fence him for a while. I have found before, that some fencers (or I ) go through a style change. It can result in injuries. Neither intend it… it just happens. My solution has been not to fence them until something changes in one of you again

[Fencergrl]

I agree with most of the above comments; if someone hurts themselves because they ran into your point so hard it hurt, THEY are the ones being unsafe. On the other hand, I do make an effort not to turn around or look away without remaining at least peripherally aware of my opponent, just because someone might do something as wreckless as your opponent did. Your action was correct, fencingwise.

I'd also agree that it's preferable not to fence with wreckless individuals. And if you have to, be extremely wary while you do so.

I was quite wary... this was one of the few times I glanced away for him... my adrenaline was pumping through the whole match.

I thought I was safe... he couldn't with a step or a lunge or a even a fleche (there was a wall 2 feet behind me). His only attack was a running charge straight at me from 12'-0" or 15'-0" away.... it never occurred to me ANYONE who do that.

Other than raising my blade, my only other option would have been to step aside and let him run into the wall and wreck his blade and/or body.

It was a stupid and dangerous move... he is a beginner, and I'm greatful no one got really hurt.

[Mr Epee]

Fencergrl...

A. I'm sorry that this happened to you.

B. You were right !!!

[nahouw]

Fencergrl...

You weren't wrong. One of the un-written rules of fencing is that you have to respect your opponent and never hit them when they are unaware -- that is why the referee can call a halt for a dangerous situation (usually when one fencer is not paying attention)

Once in the club, I was fencing a girl (epee), and when coming en-guarde, I was relaxed and with my blade down. She was perplexed with my en-guarde position, and turned to ask the coach. He told her no, I am ready, and I can hit her from there - be very careful -- I, of course, since she turned her head and was not attentive did nothing.

I also commend you on your quick response to throw your arm out upon his threat -- there have been several times during competition in which I thought I had hit and started walking back to the en-guarde line -- upon not hearing a halt from the referee, I instinctivley threw my arm out with a point-in-line. That protected me in several instances in which opponents weren't aware that one should not hit an opponent when one's opponent is unaware.

[Fencergrl]

Fencergrl...

A. I'm sorry that this happened to you.

B. You were right !!!

Thanks Mr. Epee, you're a sweetie, but I'm okay. It just rattled and confused me, but getting to talk it out through this forum brought me some clarity. The coaches didn't really see what happened, and the kid didn't realize that he crossed the line. I'll sort it out tomorrow at practice.