No Double Touches

[fencingguy]

I just received my copy of Escrime, the FIE publication, and in it there is an article/interview with Roch where he puts forward some of his plans for his new term in office.

In it he muses over the need to make epee fencing more dynamic. He suggests possibly eliminating double touches. It seems to be in passing, but who knows with him.

My concern is twofold. One, why do you need to **** with epee???? Supposedly this is in the context of making sure epee fencers are fencing according to the rules, just as foil fencers had to be forced to adhere to the rules with the new timings (his ideas, not mine). But how are epee fencers doing anything that is not intended in the rules??? Second, wouldn't the elimination of double touches make epeeists even more cautious and reserved, because to give up one touch is almost certain to result in defeat at that point?

[keith]

The only way to make epee more attacking would be to cut the lockout time. Although I really hope that our benighted leader hasn't thought of this.

[RebelFencer]

I think if Roche messed with Epee, I would take a break from competing until the fencing world managed to sort itself out.

[glowstix]

this is horrible!! and i was just having fun watching the foilists and sabrists complain about timing changes thinking that EPEE was immune. leave EPEE the way it is; there's nothing wrong with it. its the closest you'll get to a "real duel" or "real fight" which is what i assume is the motivation behind all the changes in the other weapons in the first place.

[Epee Scherma]

I switched to epee because it never changes that much. Why does he have to change epee now? To make it more "action packed". IMHO, that's a weak reason to change the weapon. Small changes like this do indeed deface the entire way a weapon is fence. A change in the milliseconds of timing for foil changed it a lot.

If he were to get rid of double touch...? I don't think I'd counterattack as much for one. Foil goes epee... Epee goes foil... hmm.

[mrbiggs]

I think that this is a good idea for those close touches where neither person clearly had the advantage. I think it would be even better if there was a set of rules that dictated who should get the touch in the case of two lights, to make it even more dynamic and realistic. Oh, wait a minute...

How will getting rid of doubles make it more dynamic? It seems to me that it will make already slow bouts much longer. I recently had a DE bout that went into the coin flip, that was 14-14, and had about 6 double touches. So rather than having 29 total touches, we'd have 16, and we would have no chance of stopping the bout before time ran out. I think this would lengthen epee tournaments ALOT.

And, of course, it would ruin part of the strategy, as fencers who were behind in bouts would not be forced to limit their moves to those that are most likely to get one-lighters.

Also, it would take out a part of the intensity. The reason I like epee is because it is (to me, at least) more tense than the other weapons. If you're down 4-0 in a DE bout, it is very unlikely that you will win it, because even if you do make a comeback, your opponent only needs to keep getting double touches to win. In other words, mistakes are extremely costly in epee, and that is because of double touches. Take out the double touches, you take out the intensity of epee, and quite possibly ruin the weapon.

[MikeHarm]

If you couldn't stalemate the opponent by doubling out once you got ahead, you'd be forced to do moves that take control if you wanted to win which would make it a livelier game I would think from start to finish.

[CvilleFencer]

So, just FYI if Roche is suddenly no loger able to complete his term, who takes over? Does anyone know the policies of this person?

This would be an absolutely horrible idea for epee. He has already dramatically altered saber and ruined foil (at least for me). Does this idiot have to ruin the joy of all three weapons? I think I may take up Kendo again...

[fencingguy]

Originally Posted by MikeHarm

If you couldn't stalemate the opponent by doubling out once you got ahead, you'd be forced to do moves that take control if you wanted to win which would make it a livelier game I would think from start to finish.

the smirking sunglasses face? That seems unnecessary.

It could force you to use actions that take control, or it could just make the person who is winning even more likely to stick their arm out because it would negate their opponent's touch, similar to how a double touch works now.

[esskreemr]

Well, I think we all agree that epee does need changes to make it more exciting and dynamic. These are just a few ideas, mind you: 1) smaller weapons with smaller rounder, more symmetrical guards and rectangular blades, 2) Introduction of a smaller target area 2) perhaps add conventions to aid the epeeist in determining the best time to attack while reducing the likelihood of injury to themselves.

With these changes, epee could start on the road being a popular, dynamic, and exciting sport...

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

With these changes, epee could start on the road being a popular, dynamic, and exciting sport...

Your loving this ain't ya foil boy? I guess after all the crap EPEEists dished out over the foil changes a little turn about is fair play. Just keep in mind that nothing is official yet. Nothing has changed and nothing has been presented. Just one power mad little nutjob musing over what he can screw up next. Hopefully he will not get the change or it will be explained to him that epee is the perfect weapon with no flaws.

[Gav]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

Well, I think we all agree that epee does need changes to make it more exciting and dynamic. These are just a few ideas, mind you: 1) smaller weapons with smaller rounder, more symmetrical guards and rectangular blades, 2) Introduction of a smaller target area 2) perhaps add conventions to aid the epeeist in determining the best time to attack while reducing the likelihood of injury to themselves.

With these changes, epee could start on the road being a popular, dynamic, and exciting sport...

That would be funny if it wasn't so tragically true.

[Gav]

Originally Posted by MikeHarm

If you couldn't stalemate the opponent by doubling out once you got ahead, you'd be forced to do moves that take control if you wanted to win which would make it a livelier game I would think from start to finish.

Rubbish, it just makes the bout go on longer. Is see Esskreemr has summed up Roche ... nicely.

[jtnation]

Fencingguy, did he discuss how double touches would be eliminated? Was it that a double touch resulted in a halt, or would the lockout time essentially be set to zero?

The former would certainly lengthen bouts, and tip the advantage to the fencer who was behind. Not recording double touches (halt - nothing done) would give the trailing fencer more opportunities to make single touches and cut into the lead.

I think the latter gives complete control to the leader. Anything that is not a single touch for the trailing fencer (assuming that the leading fencer sticks the arms out to "double" and gets a single for it) not only shortens the bout, but stretches the lead.

Imagine, in basketball, if the act of missing a three pointer gave your opponent two points. And the ball. And maybe a free throw. You'd have to take the ball the basket for a much higher percentage shot, just to have a chance. The same thing seems to apply here - the trailing fencer must not only play perfect defense, but execute nearly flawless offense, against a defense which had collapsed into the paint, so to speak.

[On preview, I'm not sure this makes sense; feel free to shred it...]

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

if they start screwing with epee, I'm leaving the sport, or atleast the USFA.

[Epee Scherma]

I wonder if the curling president changes their rules like this. I think I'll try the sport of curling if epee was to change.

[Alain]

I don't get why anyone would want to change EPEE, it's perfect as it is!!!

[oiuyt]

I actually think it would be a reasonable idea to shorten the lockout time in epee. Heck, it's already only ~1/3 of sabre's.

I fenced a DE bout 2 years ago that included 12 double touches (plus 3 single lights and one touch for going off the back of the strip). That's absolutely rediculous that 80% of the time we both hit "at the same time."

Only reason that it's as long as it is currently is because that was the limit of the relays available 70 years ago. Okay, let's update a bit. I suggest the FIE should experiment (preferably in testing situations rather than by declaring test timings for world cups for a season :eyeroll:) with various shorter lockouts and see what happens.

-B :)
*preparing for epeeist backlash and a hatemail on the epeeists-only thread* :)

[R. Exnicios]

If R. Roch is not stopped fencing will look nothing like it does today.

No double touches in any weapon, no off target lights in any weapon, clear masks, nowires, very complex tips to eliminta ethe need for grounded strips. No real Right of way. We will have three weapons:

New Epee (i.e. no doubles and a very complicated tip)

Foil Epee (epee with a small guard)

Saber Epee (epee with cuts allowed)

Ahhhh


R

[ThatReallyHurt]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

Well, I think we all agree that epee does need changes to make it more exciting and dynamic. These are just a few ideas, mind you: 1) smaller weapons with smaller rounder, more symmetrical guards and rectangular blades, 2) Introduction of a smaller target area 2) perhaps add conventions to aid the epeeist in determining the best time to attack while reducing the likelihood of injury to themselves.

With these changes, epee could start on the road being a popular, dynamic, and exciting sport...

Hey - if they did that, I'd consider switching to epee...