No Double Touches

[fencingguy]

I think Brad has been hit over the head a few too many times... thats what you get for switching to sabre .

As far as suggestions for dealing with double touches, as I said it appeared to be only in passing. As if he had just pulled it out of his ***, which is where most of his ideas seem to come from. So there was no detail about how he would go about doing it.

My real concern is that he would feel the need to do anything with epee at all. The reason for the three weapons is that they each offer unique aspects of fencing that can appeal to different individuals. Right now Roche seems to be moving them all closer together so that the only difference is the target area and the type of weapon.

I have no problem with change in this sport, everything changes, and we're foolish to think it stays the same. What I do have a problem with is the haphazard, and extreme manner in which changes have been enforced by Roche and his crew. Changes should either be natural outgrowths of the innovations created by the participants, or gentle guiding rules that encourage such.

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by Epee Scherma

I wonder if the curling president changes their rules like this. I think I'll try the sport of curling if epee was to change.

i think i'd go back to golf..

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by Alain

I don't get why anyone would want to change EPEE, it's perfect as it is!!!

i'd agree with that...other than those annoying tip screws!!! thats just about the only thing i hate about EPEE.

[One and Only...]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

Well, I think we all agree that epee does need changes to make it more exciting and dynamic. These are just a few ideas, mind you: 1) smaller weapons with smaller rounder, more symmetrical guards and rectangular blades, 2) Introduction of a smaller target area 2) perhaps add conventions to aid the epeeist in determining the best time to attack while reducing the likelihood of injury to themselves.

With these changes, epee could start on the road being a popular, dynamic, and exciting sport...

I don't think it would still really be epee then.

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

Well, I think we all agree that epee does need changes to make it more exciting and dynamic. These are just a few ideas, mind you: 1) smaller weapons with smaller rounder, more symmetrical guards and rectangular blades, 2) Introduction of a smaller target area 2) perhaps add conventions to aid the epeeist in determining the best time to attack while reducing the likelihood of injury to themselves.

With these changes, epee could start on the road being a popular, dynamic, and exciting sport...

Now this is just SICK and WRONG!

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

So, just FYI if Roche is suddenly no loger able to complete his term, who takes over?

Why? Are you shopping for a rifle with a telescopic sight as we speak?

I have said it before: Roch was bound to get wind of the complacency of epeeists ( "perfect as it is", indeed! ) and feel compelled to molest you guys, too. If you'd only kept quiet about it, he might not have noticed---but nooo, you had to bring yourselves to his malign attention...

Actually, I suspect that the passivity penalty was a shot across the bow. More to come, probably. Welcome to the snake pit...

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Why? Are you shopping for a rifle with a telescopic sight as we speak?

Na, Me mum always said that rifles are for people you don't know. Knives are for people you don't like!

I guess it just proves that no weapon is safe from his molestation until we are all hooked up to stunt wires fencing to a blue screen so he can insert whatever backdrop he feels to make the sport more like an action movie. Bouts on the beach during the invasion of Normandy anyone? I really hate this guy...

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Only reason that it's as long as it is currently is because that was the limit of the relays available 70 years ago. Okay, let's update a bit. I suggest the FIE should experiment (preferably in testing situations rather than by declaring test timings for world cups for a season :eyeroll with various shorter lockouts and see what happens.

Interesting. One bad side that I could imagine is that it would promote two things.

a) fencers with long arms. If the lockout time is shorter, short fencers have that much less time to hit me in the torso if my arm is extended. If there's anything we don't need, it's more tall fencers in epee.

b) Lucky touches. If two fencers lunge and go for torso, but one of them snags the sleeve near the shoulder, rather than being a double touch, it will be one light. This will also promote fencers needing to adjust their shims and weights to perfection, needing to trim their sleeves, etc., because it will be worth more.

This is all, of course, my imagination and is up for debate.

[Orangeaholic]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

Well, I think we all agree that epee does need changes to make it more exciting and dynamic. These are just a few ideas, mind you: 1) smaller weapons with smaller rounder, more symmetrical guards and rectangular blades, 2) Introduction of a smaller target area 2) perhaps add conventions to aid the epeeist in determining the best time to attack while reducing the likelihood of injury to themselves.

With these changes, epee could start on the road being a popular, dynamic, and exciting sport...

Smaller weapons= foil
Smaller target area= foil
Rules= foil
Are you saying to make epee more dynamic it would have to be foil's evil twin? The best thing about epee is that there are not excess rules to follow.

-Orange

[Feraud]

I hate to say this but it sounds rather logical
Double touches for simultaneous attacks aren't awarded in either foil or saber, they're annulled.
So why should they be counted in epee?

Shortening the blocking time wouldn’t be a good idea, then the touches would almost be awarded at random.

[SäbelFechter]

Originally Posted by Feraud

I hate to say this but it sounds rather logical
Double touches for simultaneous attacks aren't awarded in either foil or saber, they're annulled.
So why should they be counted in epee?

Why? That's one of the things that differentiates epee from the other two weapons and eliminating double touches would change the way epee is fenced. Next you'll be asking why hits with the edge are allowed in sabre when they aren't in foil & epee.

[DHCJr]

When there is a double touch in Foil or Sabre, there CAN be a touch given. One of the touches could be an attack and one a counter attack. Epee doesn't have right of way.

Don't compare apples and oranges, it doesn't work.

[fencinman89]

CochRoche- A few questions about him.....
How did he get elected?
Who votes for him?
When is the next election?
Can we get rid of him before then?
How do we get rid of him?
How do we make sure he doesnt get re-elected?
How come he can make any rule he wants?
Are there any checks and balances against his madness?
Does he get paid for this insanity?
If he does, I'd be rich: "I say we out an epeeist, a sabrist, and a foilist all on 1 strip and have em fence, what do u think?"
-Tre'

[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by Orangeaholic

Smaller weapons= foil
Smaller target area= foil
Rules= foil
Are you saying to make epee more dynamic it would have to be foil's evil twin? The best thing about epee is that there are not excess rules to follow.

-Orange

I'm pretty sure he's yanking your chain. I'm also sure that this proves that foilists, while they can mock, cannot count.

[Feraud]

Originally Posted by SäbelFechter

Why? That's one of the things that differentiates epee from the other two weapons and eliminating double touches would change the way epee is fenced. Next you'll be asking why hits with the edge are allowed in sabre when they aren't in foil & epee.

Just being the devil’s advocate here…
So what would happen to foil and saber if it were decided in the case of a simultaneous attack that the touches would be awarded to both fencers? That would lead to both fencers simply trying to hit each other simultaneously. Like epee.
I’m not sure what effect that would have on epee.

Originally touches were scored against the fencers and in a pool format where every touch against would be a penalty. But elimination matches encourage double touches since the aggregate number of points has no penalty on the winner.

So what would happen if a double touch in epee were treated like a simultaneous attack in foil?
It might just make epee terribly tedious with low scoring bouts, who knows?
Anyways why change the rules now?

[Army Fencer]

Okay, let's put two and two together here:

From the "UH OH!! IOC will be voting to cut sports from the 2012 Olympics on July 8th!!!!" thread:

Originally Posted by ChubbyHubby

I can almost imagine how it is going to turn out....

[prediction]
Olympic Programme commission Executive Board Report, July 2005

Part 2.1

"Global public and media interest in a sport must be considered as key elements in the analysis of sports for these are fundamental elements in the success of the Games."

Part 3.1.1 Exclusion of sports currently in the Olympic Programme

"Fencing (FIE)
Participation on a global level was reviewed, and it was concluded that fencing is moderately popular in certain European countries, but this popularity is not reflected throughout entire regions or continents. The lack of TV coverage resulted in very low global viewing and press coverage levels.

The commission noted the ultimately failed efforts of the FIE to adapt the competition format, and the statistics indicating global affiliation and participation indicate a lack of global participation by nations and individual athletes"
[/prediction]

It seems that the FIE leadership is doing everything it can to keep fencing alive through the next century. The Olympics are the pinacle of fencing success, and if fencing isn't in the Olympics, we risk losing the sport altogether.

To make the sport more attractive to viewers, it appears that radical changes are necessary. In essence, the more popular they try to make it for the general public, the less popular it is to its participants.

Some of the changes they've made have been absolutely absurd, and I disagree with the idea of focusing so much on the Olympics that they forget the sport. I can understand why they're doing it, though. I also expect more rediculous changes.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by fencinman89

CochRoche- A few questions about him.....
How did he get elected?
Who votes for him?
When is the next election?
Can we get rid of him before then?
How do we get rid of him?
How do we make sure he doesnt get re-elected?
How come he can make any rule he wants?
Are there any checks and balances against his madness?
Does he get paid for this insanity?
If he does, I'd be rich: "I say we out an epeeist, a sabrist, and a foilist all on 1 strip and have em fence, what do u think?"
-Tre'

The members of the FIE (the slightly more than 100 NGBs (such as the USFA)) vote. Not sure how often such elections are, but having the term be for a quadrennial wouldn't be unreasonable. As mentioned, I don't know if that's what the FIE actually does. There was just an election held (he won by a 3-1 margin roughly over the only other candidate). You make sure he doesn't get re-elected by convincing people in charge of the dozens of new NGBs that he has helped create and get funding for in the past few years that he isn't actually the source of their jobs/power/prestige. Good luck with that one. He just declares new rules, then brings them up for a vote. Repeatedly. Until eventually the congress has the right mix of NGBs present to approve them. Unless that fails enough times, in which case he claims that he has a concencous via phone conversations with a majority of the NGBs. Checks and balances are that the FIE congress actually needs to approve changes... something that would not be apparent from the FIE "urgent letters" that specify immediate changes. I don't know if he gets paid or not. I've heard he has enough that that's not a particularly large issue to him.

The elections earlier this year have made it clear that the power structures being the way they currently are means that he doesn't have much to worry about politically. Certainly could be construed as a fairly general mandate of leadership.

-B :)

[Wizardly]

Double touch - you're both bleeding, thus you're both stupid, thus you both don't score. How's it change fencing? A leads B in the score. A simply doubles out B so that B can't get ahead. (Wait, that's what they say already.) Fencers will need to make "one-light" actions if they want to get ahead or catch up. (Nuts, they say that already too). I suppose if the score doesn't go up, then more time gets burned and the scores are lower. Sound pretty good if you accept the "double-stupid" philosophy - screws with your indicators in the pool.

I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing a huge change in the way epee would be fenced like this. I keep hearing the epee mantra "to hit and to not be hit" which gets largely ignored in practice anyway by those who chant it when instead of not being hit they counter-attack...and DO get hit, except lockout time prevents the touch from scoring...hmmmmm

If you REALLY want to see epee fencers panic, you INCREASE the lockout time. Suddenly all those "haha i dinged that wrinkle on your sleeve" shots don't trump the "but you're bleeding from a gaping hole in your neck" shots. Ooh, better yet, let's add a 15ms debounce time! Get rid of all those grazing shots! (Evil cackling)

Yes, foil boy is loving this.

[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by Wizardly

Yes, foil boy is loving this.

Rather, Classical boy is loving this.

Two problems with your line of thought.

1) epee is a first blood weapon, not a duel to the death

2) we no longer use sharps, get over it

also,

3) in response, this person eats babies

[Abel]

Originally Posted by Feraud

I hate to say this but it sounds rather logical
Double touches for simultaneous attacks aren't awarded in either foil or saber, they're annulled.
So why should they be counted in epee?

Shortening the blocking time wouldn’t be a good idea, then the touches would almost be awarded at random.

Because that's the reason Epee is so interesting. Atleast for me. When I make an attack on ones shoulder, and my opponent hits me in the chest, I've made a dumb attack. Plain and simple. I made an oversight and if this would be for real I'd be dead. That's why I love Epee and dislike foil. In foil they would say, "Abel had right of way so he gets the point".

In Epee you can't make such an 'open' attack. You always have to make sure that you can't be hit yourself while you try to hit your opponent. It makes the sport more complete in my opinion. Eliminating this (in my eyes) most important feature of epee turns epeefencing into foil fencing just with bigger weapons.