Christian with Non-Christian Relationships

[ReverseLunge]

Create and feed on fear.

The entire basis of Christianity is fear. You fear death, and so they offer you a nice place called "heaven" where your "soul" goes when you die. "You don't really die," they coo in your ear sweetly, "If you accept Jesus into your heart, you can live Forever!" So wait a minute, I don't automatically live forever! Uh-oh! What's this bargain I have to make? Well, I just have to live according to His rules, blah blah blah. But (because there is no He) what I end up doing is living my life in self-deception surrounded by others who are deluding themselves in order to feel good, too. And I miss out on many aspects of life...hey wait, wasn't that what I was worried about losing in the first place? Hey but that's not all. Now we know that your "soul" goes to heaven if you follow their little rules...what happens if you don't? Well, you soul will be thrown into a "dark, unspeakable place" and you will burn forever in a "lake of fire." Hey! Where I come from, that's a threat! Or, in other words, motivating your opponent with FEAR. Where I come from, that's considered to be rude.

Now they are feeding on your fear of AIDS. Yes, AIDS is something to be afraid of, but they have labeled it as "God's punishment for those who disobey His Law." What happened to the lake of fire? There never was any lake of fire. They didn't generate enough fear with the Hell fairy tale so they have to latch on to some real-world evil and say that it came from God. (Why would God send evil on those he loves?) Don't go out and have sex, now! Nothing will save you from God's hideous wrath! Just from having sex once, even if it's your virgin boyfriend, you'll develop hideous sores, your organs will liquefy and your brain will ooze out your nose! That's what you get for being bad!

What else are you afraid of? You're afraid of being a bad person. You want you life to be justifiable and good. You want to look back on your life when you are 70 and say, "Hey, I was a good person." Christianity makes this easy for you. All you have to do is believe in Jesus! Wow! You believe in Jesus? You must be a good person. Those other people who don't believe in Jesus, they're bad people. I have news for you: Jesus was a bigoted, power-hungry jerk.

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Completely insane.

Christians have a number of beliefs that defy all logic...

The correctness of the information in the Bible is of central importance to Christian faith. One reason it is often said to be factual is because it is the Word of God, and, therefore, must be true. Also, Christian scholars point out that the Bible portrays many factual historical events, and, therefore, the religious aspects of those events must truly have happened as well.

God is said to have written the Bible through the hands of others. Their names are recorded as the authors of the text. No one ever thinks to wonder why it is that we trust these men to tell the truth...that they were really communicated to by God. Human history is full of people who have claimed to speak to God but have been proven to be fakes. In this case, we are not only taking the authors' word for it, but also the word of the translators and librarians of the early Catholic church. The earliest manuscripts of the books of the Bible are dated at around 400 AD, which leaves over 300 years for falsifications to have occurred. Yes, this date is subject to debate, but Sir Frederic G. Kenyon, formerly Director and Principal Librarian of the British Museum, summarized the evidence for the validity of the new Testament as follows:

"In no other case is the interval of time between the composition of the book and the date of the earliest extant [presently existing] manuscripts so short as in that of the New Testament. The books of the New Testament were written in the latter part of the first century; the earliest extant manuscripts (trifling scraps excepted) are of the fourth century -- say, from 250 to 300 years later."

I found that quote on a Christian's page, by the way. If you want me to believe that a guy was really God and that he "died for my sins" (whatever that means) and rose from the dead, I want the paper that came out the next day; I want a sworn statement from at least 3 witnesses IN WRITING; I want some pictures, damn it! Seriously: if I am expected to believe that a miracle happened, then it must be more irrational to deny the evidence than it is to deny the miracle. Christianity has never come close to meeting this criteria.

Furthermore, assuming that these men are really reporting the Word of God, how do we know that God is telling the truth? The only real reason to believe it is because you believe the people who told it to you, and they believed the people who told it to them, and so forth.

The historical content of the Bible is well established. What is not well established are the magical events that take place in the context of those historical events. For instance, the Jews supposedly blew a magical horn which brought down the walls of Jericho. Some people have said that this is proof to the validity of the Bible because archeologists have shown that the city was destroyed at about the time the Bible indicates. No one said, however, that the Jews destroyed the city via a magical musical instrument; this part is clearly myth.

To put you in proper perspective, let's consider classical mythology. In particular, the Trojan war. In classical mythology, the war is over a woman, Helen of Troy, and several gods and goddesses aid the soldiers in battle. It is well established that there was a Trojan War. Does that mean that it was fought solely over a woman or that dieties aided the living in the battle? Of course not. To say that it did would make you suitable for committal. Imagine, you are in high school English class and Mrs. Whatsername has just had you read the Iliad. Karl Inbred comes in and says, "Gee whiz, I sure didn't know that there were all sorts of gods and goddesses that will help good old boys like me in a war! I think I'll go join the army now!" You'd laugh at him. Let's say the president just read the Iliad and comes on the TV saying, "I am sure our soldiers will be just fine in the upcoming battle because Apollo will make their aim true and Athena will give them expert strategical advice." The guy would be removed from office for his mental disturbance.

The only real reasons to believe in the validity of the Bible are faith and protection of one's subjective reality. Faith is really a matter of wanting to believe something because it is comforting for you on some level. We are scared of death, for instance. Christianity saves us the discomfort of being dead. Christians are typically so invested in their beliefs that to denounce them would be to topple their entire world and destroy the complex rationalizations they have for many of their actions and their explanation for why they are "good people."

Another great logical mistake Christians make is to believe that Christianity is correct because their conscience says that Christian values are right. Your conscience is a side effect of your early phenomenal experience. It is your most deeply internalized values. It does not come from some mystical source, but from your parents, teachers, and society at large. You could easily have been taught different things and then your conscience would say that those things were right. Contrast, for instance, Mangaia (southernmost of the Polynesian Cook Island chain) with certain Irish islands. The Catholics think sex is wrong (of course it is!) and the Mangaians think it is wonderful (of course it is!).

Yet another brain foible of Christians is that you don't have to believe everything in the Bible to be a "good Christian." This is dead wrong. The Bible is clear about women, sex, homosexuality, and slavery. If you are female, if you like sex, if you are gay, lesbian or bisexual, if you are the descendant of slaves (and feel slavery is wrong), you have no business being a Christian. I'll explain later.

[Bayou Bum]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

blah blah blah .... too much to include in a quote

There are so many errors in your post that its not even worth pointing out. Obviously, you are just trying to get a reaction. Sorry, but we love you anyway

The Bum

[ReverseLunge]

Sexually dysfunctional.

The local Christian student group here at *deleted* Campus Crusade for Christ--has a new theme that they have pinned up all over campus, put on t-shirts and in full-page advertisements in the Maneater. It goes something like this: there is a picture of a man and a woman in full wedding gear, the bride looking over her shoulder in a "wouldn't you like to be me" sort of way...the caption reads, "What to wear for safer sex." Another version (with no illustration) says, "Practice safe sex, wait until marriage and stay faithful."

This is a prime example of the sick thinking typical of Christians. Everyone knows that by simply driving your car you are in greater danger than from having sex. Why don't Christians suggest that we all abstain from driving until we can all afford our very own road? Because that would be stupid...we put on our seat belts and go out onto the streets as if it were perfectly safe. We do this because the only other option is to stay huddled in our houses paralyzed with fear. This is exactly what the Campus Crusaders want you to do.

I have spoken to countless freshmen--male and female--who have been terrified by conservative propaganda into believing that the first time they have sex they will get pregnant and catch AIDS. Provided that you take the normal precautions, this is as silly as the popular misconception of the 70's that you couldn't get pregnant the first time you had sex. What we are seeing here is a reaction to the 70's and early 80's that rivals the stupidity of those decades, but in reverse. The cause is, simply, Christians.

Christian students are by far the most screwed up about these things. I have a few examples. I will start with the Campus Crusaders...

Specimen number one is a very strange girl who lives in the dorms. She has no contact with males on a one-to-one basis. She is completely asexual. Recently, I saw her sporting one of CCC's lovely t-shirts and overheard her discussing the ingenuity of the Crusaders most recent evil plan. If this girl ever mates, I'll be shocked. She has Jesus, you see, so she doesn't need another man.

But wait, there's more. I used to have a friend who was a Crusader...she shall remain nameless. She was obsessed with maintaining her purity. In order to do so, she went so far as to allow one of her boyfriends to try to have anal sex with her because Jesus, apparently, doesn't mind that because it's not "real sex."

I have a good friend who is dating a frat boy who is a Christian. She's not. Although I haven't had an update in a while, the last I checked he would typically have sex with her and then have an attack of guilt, and tell her that they shouldn't do it anymore. Of course they always do it again. We aren't just talking about a little guilt here, we are talking about a major attack with crying and everything. Of course, he would completely dump her if he found out that she's been with a woman...

I have a positive acquaintance from high school who goes to school here...a couple of years ago one of my other high school acquaintances invited him out to her car for sex. So he went, of course, but right after orgasm he began crying and praying to God for forgiveness because what he had done was so "wrong." The poor girl freaked out and started bawling and had to leave him in the car with Jesus. Now he has sworn off sex. They had been dating for years before this happened. It's not like she twisted his arm and made him do it. He's a nut.

I know another person who invited a girl up to his room one evening, and after no more than 15 minutes she was literally begging him to have sex with her...I quote, "F' me, don't keep me waiting," that sort of thing. She left a few hours later. He saw her the next day and, lo and behold, she was a Christian and hadn't even slept that night. She had been up the whole time pacing around, crying, feeling guilty for being such a bad person. Her roommate, also a Christian, had given her a lecture about what a **** she was, too. Wait a minute, you Christians out there are saying, "Oh, I bet that poor girl was RAPED and the bad old guy doing it just said that she begged for it so he'd get away with it!" WRONG! The guy heard it, and so did his roommate and his roommate's girlfriend. And the girl never said she didn't want to have sex, or that the guy raped her.

There is nothing wrong with having sex. (Similarly, there is nothing wrong with not having sex, but Americans have no trouble with that one.) Americans have less sex than Europeans yet we have significantly more unintended pregnancies than Europeans. Why is that? Guilt. People feel like they can't carry around condoms because that means you were planning on having sex...you have to be "swept off your feet."

Sex is a natural function and a natural need just like hunger and thirst. If you want to have sex with someone, you should do it no matter if you know them or not. Am I advocating anonymous sex? If that's what you want...go for it! If that's not what you want, don't. Either way, it is not immoral as long as no one is hurt in the process. Incidentally, I am betting that very few people want anonymous, meaningless sex in the first place.

Another one of CCC's little posters makes the claim that if you have sex before marriage, you will get your heart broken. That's only in the case where you are trying to use sex to get love. Satisfy your lust with sex and your love through more appropriate venues...you know what they are.

In the Bible, Paul clearly states that, optimally, you should never have sex ever (Theologian, Christian and editor of the Ryrie Study Bible, Charles Caldwell Ryrie, Th.D, Ph.D, agrees with me on this point about Paul). He says that marriage is only a way to make the sinfulness of sex more diluted. Do you really want to adhere to an ideology that condemns a normal, beautiful part of human life?

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Soldier

You posted after ReverseLunge, that's what you did.

Oh, okay, cool.
You um..quoted him. Lack of sleep has damaged me. I'm going to bed, night.

[Coup de Grace]

There are no guarantees. Life gets in the way of a lot of things. Because Christians marry and raise kids does not mean that their marriage and kids are better or exempt from real life.

Billy Graham's son, Franklin, was hell-on-wheels during his youth. He has turned his life around completely and has served as the world through his Samaritan's Purse ministry.

By a show of hands, does anyone know a Pastor that has experienced a failed marriage because of adultery? Sadly true.

[Soldier]

Gav, any chance you could clean up a bit?

[Soldier]

Originally Posted by Coup de Grace

There are no guarantees. Life gets in the way of a lot of things. Because Christians marry and raise kids does not mean that their marriage and kids are better or exempt from real life.

Billy Graham's son, Franklin, was hell-on-wheels during his youth. He has turned his life around completely and has served as the world through his Samaritan's Purse ministry.

By a show of hands, does anyone know a Pastor that has experienced a failed marriage because of adultery? Sadly true.

Of course. But if you want to have better chances at a more stable marriage, and calmer kids...

[swordwench]

Good god, RL - a bit too much caffeine this evening? (Too much caffeine in your bloodstream and not enough real spice in your life, or however the Smiths said it...)

I've read that a Christian is a man who repents on Sunday for what he did on Saturday - and will do again on Monday.

I won't be the first to cast stones here. But having been involved with people of several different religions over the years (and the product of a mixed-religion parentage myself), AND married to at least one person of a religion different from my own, it doesn't HAVE to be an issue. Generally, the person with the stronger faith (or determination to carry on the traditions) will win out in any battle on how to raise the kids. Get a grip. People who love each other enough to live together will respect each other's choices and beliefs. If you haven't found that, you are in the wrooooong relationship. Run away, fast. But keep those stones to yourself.

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by Soldier

Gav, any chance you could clean up a bit?

Don't have him erase the truth you son of a gun!

[Soldier]

Originally Posted by swordwench

Good god, RL - a bit too much caffeine this evening? (Too much caffeine in your bloodstream and not enough real spice in your life, or however the Smiths said it...)

I've read that a Christian is a man who repents on Sunday for what he did on Saturday - and will do again on Monday.

I won't be the first to cast stones here. But having been involved with people of several different religions over the years (and the product of a mixed-religion parentage myself), AND married to at least one person of a religion different from my own, it doesn't HAVE to be an issue. Generally, the person with the stronger faith (or determination to carry on the traditions) will win out in any battle on how to raise the kids. Get a grip. People who love each other enough to live together will respect each other's choices and beliefs. If you haven't found that, you are in the wrooooong relationship. Run away, fast. But keep those stones to yourself.

Are you perhaps a bit overreacting?

Not casting any stones here...just giving my opinion of how things go, and what (according to the Christian faith) is the right thing to do.

[Saber-Psycho]

Originally Posted by Soldier

As Coup pointed out above - Paul saying for believers not to marry unbelievers. He does say that if they're already married, they shouldn't get divorced for sake of the children, but he does say that they shouldn't get married in the first place.

What if there are children before the marriage?? Then what do you do?

[Soldier]

Then definitely get married, again for the sake of the kids!

[swordwench]

Awww, you guys are so old-fashioned. It's almost heart-warming. And no, I wasn't over-reacting. My point is, to each his own. "An it harm no one" - and I'm not even a wiccan.

[Coup de Grace]

Swordwench-

I mean no harm in my posts either. I hope that I did not offend you or anyone else. These debates are difficult. Matters of faith and belief are dicey subjects to discuss without ticking someone off.

CdG

[Soldier]

Originally Posted by Coup de Grace

Swordwench-

I mean no harm in my posts either. I hope that I did not offend you or anyone else. These debates are difficult. Matters of faith and belief are dicey subjects to discuss without ticking someone off.

CdG

Ah, no, I've no disagreement with you. It just sounded like swordwench's reply was a bit...strident? Didn't want to be brewing up anything nasty.

[Soldier]

Originally Posted by swordwench

Awww, you guys are so old-fashioned. It's almost heart-warming. And no, I wasn't over-reacting. My point is, to each his own. "An it harm no one" - and I'm not even a wiccan.

Ah, just thought you sounded a bit worked up - wanted to make sure you weren't getting mad. I agree "to each their own"...to a point. Christians, though, are called to hold each other accountable. Not to judge, but to point out to a fellow Christian when they're doing something wrong.

[lochinvar]

He also said, "It is better to marry than to burn." and "wives be subject to your husbands" and a lot of other things that sound odd to a 20th Century American.

I don't think Paul had a very good image of marriage in general.

[Soldier]

Really? I think they still make perfect sense.

"It is better to marry than to burn with lust" - if you're getting all burned up about a person, at least get married so that things are legitimate and should be more stable.

He did say for wives to be subject to their husbands - but he also said that husbands must take care of their wives, and be concerned for their needs and desires.