Fencing philosophies/texts

[SwordSoul]

Hi guys,

I was actually really enjoying the Kendo vs. Western sword thread before it went to hell in a handbasket (didn't realize it was so old).

Anywho---sort of continuing the theme I'd like to ask--would anyone care to share texts/outlooks etc... they've specifically used in fencing/other? For example, my friend says that The Book of Five Rings offered a neat perspective on his fencing and martial arts. He is currently reading "the Unfettered Mind," a book from a zenji/zen master to the samurai of his era.

I myself have found "Tao of Jeet Kune Do" to be marvelous, and use many of the things found in that book when teaching my fencers (and of course many of us know that Bruce used a lot o' fencin' in his stuff)


i guess I'm saying that there was a general consensus that either technique was valid giving the right circumstance, so this isn't "western vs. eastern philosophy" thread but i suppose more "how have you incorporated your sport ethic/philosophy/belief/reasons into other things or into your game itself?"

peace

[rmyounis]

For competitive fencing, try game theory.
http://www.gametheory.net/

[mrbiggs]

There are a whole bunch of books out there, but there's a couple things to keep in mind, if you're looking for moves and strategies in modern sport fencing.

1. Fencing changes alot, and some of the moves and strategies you read about in a book may not be used much or at all anymore.

2. Don't get anything from Nick Evangelista if you plan on doing modern sport fencing.

3. Actually, he does have some valuable things to say, but keep in mind that he is a classical fencer, and that some of what he says is just wrong in sport fencing.

4. You can't learn fencing from a book, it can only assist. Make sure you have a good coach if you want to be good.

5. If you're looking for a history of fencing, or a comparison of Western and Eastern fencing or something like that, this post is worthless.

[Schiavona]

Many fencers start fencing at the time in their lives when they are trying, or starting, to figure out their personal ethics and philosophy. This makes what their coach (authority/mentor figure) and club (peer group) believe very important. Some salles have a "win at all costs" philosophy and some coaches only seem to pay attention to their "winning" students. This can really screw a person up for life.

I really don't see a difference between "Eastern" and "Western" philosophies. Zen is only one Eastern philosophy. "Love your fellow man" is only one Western philosophy.

Zen always seemed to me to be more a way of thinking, or rather, a way of training the subconciense(sorry for the spelling) mind. Acting in a proper manner without thinking is very appealing to swordsmen.

[Schiavona]

Many fencers start fencing at the time in their lives when they are trying, or starting, to figure out their personal ethics and philosophy. This makes what their coach (authority/mentor figure) and club (peer group) believe very important. Some salles have a "win at all costs" philosophy and some coaches only seem to pay attention to their "winning" students. This can really screw a person up for life.

I really don't see a difference between "Eastern" and "Western" philosophies. Zen is only one Eastern philosophy. "Love your fellow man" is only one Western philosophy.

Zen always seemed to me to be more a way of thinking, or rather, a way of training the subconciense(sorry for the spelling) mind. Acting in a proper manner without thinking is very appealing to swordsmen.

[sabreur]

Zen and Japanese Culture, by DT Suzuki, has two long chapters on Zen and swordsmanship, and is a good overall introduction to Japanese Zen.

Eric Herrigal's Zen in the Art of Archery is a good short book about one Westerner's experience with Zen.

[VELISARIOS]

Hello to you.
Offcourse you will see familiarity in those books and western technicks. Jeet Kune do is a new martial art as all we know and made from Bruce Lee. Bruce before make this tmartial art, pass throught, from many other techniks. The major was Wing Chung but he pass from boxing and from fencing. Yes from fencing! so you will see familiarity.
Now about Mussasi and the book of five rings. There are some historians which said that in his early years of his life this great warrior learn the art of the two sword fighting from a Portugal or Spain warrior. And I accept this because it was anacceptable for someone to fight with two weapons according to Bushido. But this man broke this code.
As I have said before (in another post) it is difficult for us to understand the philosophy of the Easterns. I suggest you to read about the Spartan code of fighting. You can read it from many historian texts.

[Alain]

Now about Mussasi and the book of five rings. There are some historians which said that in his early years of his life this great warrior learn the art of the two sword fighting from a Portugal or Spain warrior. And I accept this because it was anacceptable for someone to fight with two weapons according to Bushido. But this man broke this code.

Actually, just to be pedantic, I heard that Miyamoto Musashi developed the two-sword technique himself, because he was left-handed (FREAK! ) and developed the style to suit his needs... and he never lost a fight, not one, ever. The guy was a legend in his own time, and is probably the most famous samurai in Japanese history. Aside from killing people, he was also quite a bit of a scholar in his later life, and this is when he wrote the book of five rings. [I love the Discovery Channels ]

I have a Japanese friend who does Kendo, and he said that the first teaching of Zen is called "Ai Uchi" (I think that's how it's spelt?!) - which means to hit your opponent just as they hit you. So, there's no anger, you treat the enemy with respect and honour, and have no fear. Sounds good, dunnit..?

Anyway, all this philosophy stuff aside, I believe it's important to have a clear mind for fencing. When a person gets angry, they don't think clearly, and make mistakes; moreover, angry people tend to hurt others. Equally, though, you should treat every opponent with respect and never underestimate them...

[rmyounis]

I dunno, I tend to fence alot better when I'm angry. I know alot of people who get sloppy and overly aggressive when they fence pissed, but I'm exactly the opposite - I fence much "tighter," cleaner and more cautiously, because I really want to win

Of course, when I get angry in fencing, it's always angry at myself as opposed to the other guy, so maybe that's why Doesn't seem to be much point in being pissed at the other guy - it's your own fault if you lose

[VELISARIOS]

Yes that is another theory about Miyamoto Musashi that he developed the technick alone but this is only a legend (as the other theory that he learn the technick from a Spain or Portugal warrior one too.We have no prooves).

That technick 'Ai Ichi' is from Yagu Ryu (a great school wich lthe head of them learn the technick of sword in the royal family.)

I agree with you , that we must have clear mind in fencing, that is universal theorem and in other arts.

[big daddy]

"We Create ourselves, we forge our bodies in the fires of our will" from "Enter the Dragon" I have found this saying to be very helpful in teaching my students. Then my goal in fencing is to make better people but winning is always nice too. I think a lot can be learned from learning how martial ats are taught and the reasons why. That reason is to create a warrior from a average person. To teach that person to face conflict underself control and to perform. It is the way of the warrior. You can see it in all fighting arts including fencing.

[gwax]

I recently reread Musashi's A Book of Five Rings with the intent of trying to see if I could find things applicable to my fencing and I'm pretty sure there's more than just a little to be found. I expect that The Fire Book is probably most relevant to fencing, though given sufficient skill, The Book of the Void might be even more so.

As a side note, Miyamoto Musashi, totally badass.

[KD5MDK]

I have a Japanese friend who does Kendo, and he said that the first teaching of Zen is called "Ai Uchi" (I think that's how it's spelt?!) - which means to hit your opponent just as they hit you. So, there's no anger, you treat the enemy with respect and honour, and have no fear. Sounds good, dunnit..?

Personally, I'd much prefer "To hit your opponent well before they hit you". When it comes to swordplay, or any sort of combat, I really dislike getting hit at all.

[Ordway]

My sabre squad captain, back in college, recommended Sun Tsu's The Art of War. I picked up a copy and have returned to it many times over the years. It doesn't have any fencing-specific advice, but it has a lot of strategic and tactical advice which is quite thought-provoking when you try to reason out how it might apply to fencing.

[parrythis]

He is currently reading "the Unfettered Mind," a book from a zenji/zen master to the samurai of his era.

I am currently working my way through that book as well. I am finding it a hard read, but if read slowly and analytically, there are concepts that can be applied.

I am also reading "Be Like Water - Practical wisdom from the Martial Arts" by Joseph Cardillo. The book is intended to apply martial arts mental techniques to everyday life but they also apply really well to fencing. It offers a variety of concepts and techniques including breathing exercises, meditations, energizing chi, mushin, etc. that are easy to incorporate into the fencing game. I feel that this book is helping the mental aspect of my game a lot.

[jBirch]

I have a Japanese friend who does Kendo, and he said that the first teaching of Zen is called "Ai Uchi" (I think that's how it's spelt?!) - which means to hit your opponent just as they hit you. So, there's no anger, you treat the enemy with respect and honour, and have no fear. Sounds good, dunnit..?

The characters mean cut-together (ai = together, uchi = cut). They can also be translated as strike in harmony which lends a subtler interpretation of the concept.

Ai-Uchi on the surface is essentially the fencing concept of simultaneous attacks. In sabre/foil this results in a nullification of the touches and so is a viable strategy for keeping your opponent at bay while you develop other opportunities. In epee it works to nullify differences in technique, essentially making the game shorter.

In one deeper sense it is also an attack that closes out the same line that your opponent is attacking into or one where you move at the same time as you and your opponent strike together. Passata-soto and the various attacks through the blade do this in fencing.

Even more deeply, it has the concept of attacking your opponent at the very instant when they have formed the thought to hit you and begun the muscle firing that will execute the action. In fencing we sometimes call this "freezing" or tempo attacks: those attacks when the opponent is "changing-gears" and committing to their action.

The final meaning is the concept of committment to your attacks. That if you commit to attacking at the same instant as your opponent you have an equal chance of winning *in the worst case*. Best case, your opponent is not as committed as you to the cut and so you beat them to the target. The key is to attack when your opponent is attacking you (not when they are ready to respond to your attack).

The concepts that you're mentioning after ai-uchi are more about ai-nuke. Ai-nuke is essentially that you and your enemy are one and nullify every action you make. What you do to the least of your brothers, that you do unto yourself kind of thing. I attack, you parry, you riposte, I parry. You search, I derobe, I search, you derobe. There can be no parry without my attack. This is crucial to things such as dealing with fencers that take a second-intention approach (they hang back and wait for you to attack, then nail you with a parry-riposte). What you realise with this concept is that if you never attack, your opponent can never parry-riposte you and you can change the game in your favour. In the ultimate case, you can't hit your opponent and your opponent can't hit you so why even bother fencing? This is where the tactical wheel gets spun to the bottom and you start executing ai-uchi techniques to win.

Finally (holy cow this is getting long) in fencing, the concept of mushin (or everywhere/nowhere mind) speaks more to the anger issue then ai-uchi or ai-nuke. When on the piste, you've got to keep a cool head when fencing a competent opponent because part of the game is to provoke you into an action that can be exploited. If you allow yourself to be provoked, you've lost mushin. Where it comes in handy is when you are dealing with things like feint/disengage. How can you tell the difference between a feint and an attack? Well, if you hold mushin, you will react only when the blade is threatening because you are reacting to the now instead of planning for the future. When your opponent changes from feint to attack, you only see the attack and not the previous 8 feints.

Reading the various other martial arts texts will give you an understanding of the underlying principals of combat and may give you some other philosophies to work on in your bouts. However, there are no concepts in any other martial art that are not also covered in fencing theory either explicitly in the teachings (distance and timing) or in the tactics (first intention, second intention, ...) or in the various blade techniques (beat, parry, attack, prise de fer, disengage, coupe, ...) or in the various footwork techniques (step, lunge, ballestra, appel, lunge, reverse lunge, passata, cross steps, fleche, flunge, ...).

If you look hard at fencing you might find the personal meaning of "In Ferro Veritas". Here's an article from Aikiweb about distance and timing in that martial art: http://www.aikiweb.com/columns/gledyard/2005_04.html.

Hope this helps.

James.

[sethwoodworth]

Might I suggest George Silver for a European view on the subject:

http://www.sirwilliamhope.org/Librar...lverModern.php

[mrbiggs]

2. Don't get anything from Nick Evangelista if you plan on doing modern sport fencing.

3. Actually, he does have some valuable things to say, but keep in mind that he is a classical fencer, and that some of what he says is just wrong in sport fencing.

I take this back. After a year of looking around, there is really no reason to get one of his books. Get a fencing book from someone who knows what they're talking about.