What is meant by countertime?

[rmyounis]

I tried google and poking around on this website, but I didn't find a definition, and I won't see my coach again 'till Monday. Anyone want to enlighten me?

[KShan5[PrFC]]

To quote this website, a countertime is defined as: an action made by the attacker against a stop hit made by the opponent.

[rmyounis]

Thank you

[Victor]

It's a higher-level iteration of the "I-know-you-know-I-know" tactics game.

[BrianH]

I like to make a half-lunge to draw the stop hit, then countertime. You have to know it's coming, so pay attention to your opponent. (Of course if the stop doesn't materialize, finish the lunge or redouble.)

[Mr Epee]

Counter-Time is similar to Anti-Matter or Pseudo-Energy

[Hamley]

A easy good exsample is drop the blade. Your looking for your opponet reaction to stop hit your blade. They stop hit it you cirle 6 it and lunge. So basicly a counter attack to your counter attack.

[fencerX]

Countertime?

Think "Hammer Time" The attacker provokes/taunts the opponent into attempting a stop hit and the attacker takes an action that says "You can't touch this ...".

MC Hammer reportedly was a keen student of the tactical wheel.

Counter/Hammer Time is often described as having three phases:

1) Preparation (the feint, invitation, engagement, beat, or whatever is used to provoke the counterattack)

2) Parry (either opposition or beat type)

3) The riposte

[rmyounis]

MC Hammer reportedly was a keen student of the tactical wheel.

Well, he HAS been around the world, from London to the Bay.

[arkady_tsep]

This may be completely wrong, but this is the way that I understand countertime.

To make it simple, think of a simple attack exchange as a musical phrase. Disregard how fast it happens and just think of each step as one individual note in a musical phrase.

Attack... Parry... Riposte... Parry...

Attack... Parry... Riposte... Parry...

This is an example of a very basic exchange in a bout.

one person attack's, the other parrie's, followed by a riposte, followed by a parry by the person that was originally attacking.

Almost like a 4/4 beat measure in a musical composition.

An action in countertime is something that happens between those beats of musical fencing.

Attack... the defender goes to parry, but instead the attacker does another action to defeat the parry and attack's again.

For example: Attack... defender goes to parry in four, but the attacker disengages beat's the defender's parry even further off in the four direction and finishe's the attack with a scoring touch.

I belive this is what countertime is. Something that's done to interrupt the normal flow of attack parry riposte parry in order to create an opportunity for attack or counter attack.

Please definitely let me know if this is wrong!

[edew]

While what you described might be a valid tactical concept, it is not counter-time. Counter-time is actually written in the rulebook.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

This may be completely wrong, but this is the way that I understand countertime.

To make it simple, think of a simple attack exchange as a musical phrase. Disregard how fast it happens and just think of each step as one individual note in a musical phrase.

Attack... Parry... Riposte... Parry...

Attack... Parry... Riposte... Parry...

This is an example of a very basic exchange in a bout.

one person attack's, the other parrie's, followed by a riposte, followed by a parry by the person that was originally attacking.

Almost like a 4/4 beat measure in a musical composition.

An action in countertime is something that happens between those beats of musical fencing.

Attack... the defender goes to parry, but instead the attacker does another action to defeat the parry and attack's again.

For example: Attack... defender goes to parry in four, but the attacker disengages beat's the defender's parry even further off in the four direction and finishe's the attack with a scoring touch.

I belive this is what countertime is. Something that's done to interrupt the normal flow of attack parry riposte parry in order to create an opportunity for attack or counter attack.

Please definitely let me know if this is wrong!

What you speak of is a better definition for counter time, a true counter time is countering an opponents counter attack.

[Victor]

Fencer A: "Look, I'm attacking!"
Fencer B: "Ah! I thought you might attack, so I'm ready to counter-attack."
Fencer A: "I was just teasing about that initial attack. I really wanted to take advantage of your counter-attack. Touche!"
Fencer B: "Darn you to heck!"

[Peach]

Counter-time is the friend of short, slow, old fencers. I (heart) counter-time.

[SmokeyTheCat263]

For what you guys are describing, wouldn't a much more intuitive name be invitation-parry-repost?

[mrbiggs]

Fencer A: "Look, I'm attacking!"
Fencer B: "Ah! I thought you might attack, so I'm ready to counter-attack."
Fencer A: "I was just teasing about that initial attack. I really wanted to take advantage of your counter-attack. Touche!"
Fencer B: "Darn you to heck!"

I'm just quoting this because I thought it was the best explanation.

Anyway, I always thought this was called "second intention." Is second intention something else completely?

[Schiavona]

I'm just quoting this because I thought it was the best explanation.

Anyway, I always thought this was called "second intention." Is second intention something else completely?

As I've always understood it counter time HAS to be a second intention action, it's just a very specific second intention action, i.e. provoking a counterattack, rather than your second intention being a counter riposte (or something else).

[mrbiggs]

As I've always understood it counter time HAS to be a second intention action, it's just a very specific second intention action, i.e. provoking a counterattack, rather than your second intention being a counter riposte (or something else).

Ah, so then what is the general definition of second intention?

[Alain]

Ah, so then what is the general definition of second intention?

I can't tell you. Not in my first post, anyway

[fencerX]

For what you guys are describing, wouldn't a much more intuitive name be invitation-parry-repost?

No.

An invitation is just one type of preparation of attack. Others preparations that can be used setting up for countertime can be any of the other weapon arm preparations such as feints, engagements, beats and/or the leg preparations (i.e. footwork).

As for the relationship between countertime and second intention ... yes, countertime can be used as an example and part of second intention, but not all countertime actions are second intentions.

That's of course because only the fencer involved could tell you whether their countertime action was really a second intention. No one else can know if the attackers intention was to draw out a stop hit (or any other response) from their opponent. We just see that the attacker took action against an attempt at a stop hit made by their opponent. That's called countertime.

Part of the challenge (and fun!) of spinning the tactical wheel in a bout is trying to figure out if your opponent's countertime action was really something they tried to set up (i.e. second intention) or if they didn't really intend or expect your attempt at a stop hit but they managed to deal with it anyway (i.e. not second intention, perhaps just lucky).

Another fun type of countertime is a stop hit in countertime. You stop hit your opponent's attempt at a stop hit.