Video Clips

[Craig]

Since a couple of threads on video are up, I am ripping some snippits of video for previews, etc.

Here is the URL to a clip of the 2004 St. Petersburg World Cup:
(Note to those speed reading: This is under the OLD TIMINGS)

Click Here for the Quicktime Video (4MB)

I just received some video that includes Joppich looking really bad - he's hunched way over exposing his back to protect against straight hits to the front. It's the same gamble a lot of women's foilists make/made: they don't believe their opponent can flick, so bend forward to obscure target.

I'll rip some of that and post it also.

Craig

[noodle]

that first touch brings a tear to the eye

[Craig]

Yes - nice example of line+derobement

The vid clip of Joppich that I will soon upload is about 13MB...forgive the subtitles - I'm punchy. You'll need to compare it to the video clip of Joppich at the 2003 World Championships here.

[mrbiggs]

that first touch brings a tear to the eye

The whole bout kind of does. It's difficult (for me at least) to predict the result from the action simply by watching the action, not the lights, because before, you knew that if a fencer's tip was within a reasonable distance of the target, he was going to hit. Now, it's difficult to tell who hit when. The only really good touch, I thought, was the second one. The other ones were...messy.

[keith]

well on the basis of three hits it certainly looks different - catching your opponent with footwork tempo so they can't get the point on, makes it easier for the ref not having to worry about the attack/prep distinction.

[Craig]

Here we go...

Old video clip, prior post, of the 2003 World Championship version of Joppich.

Here is an early (I believe January) 2005 world cup bout with Joppich under the new timings. Note the difference in style, technique, and body positioning.

2005 Joppich clip with a few late night subtitles... (13MB...didn't feel like doing a lot of cutting.)

Oh yeah - the file is uploading now, so you need to wait 5 minutes after I post this to actually get the file.

also - sorry that I didn't plug in any "llama" subtitles...

[noodle]

ugh
i would've much rather watched an epee video than that crap

new timings lead to changes in everything that uggofies foil fencing. yuck.

[TooLoftheDeviL]

New foil fencing makes baby jesus cry.

[wflaschka]

Uuuugh. I'm mixed.

On the one hand, that's laughably bad. His confidence in the box is completely shot, the poor guy. I much prefer how the French adapted at the CIP, at least they didn't look like scrubs.

On the other hand, I've already seen fencers winning without the contortionist nonsense. So it's not all on the box, e.g., Joppich did use the same hunched guard in the 2003 World Champ bout against Vanni, the same bout which got a lot of criticism for being so ugly.

His results this year haven't been horrible, but this isn't his old self.

[glowstix]

the only good thing about those clips is that they do look a bit like epee.. actually its not that good. as much as i love epee i think foil should have its own identity. it just looks like there's more thinking going on and i like that aspect. the hunching over doesn't look good at all. i think joppich's style has always been that ugly, hunched over stuff, even before the changes. the timings just made itworse..

[JackSparrow]

You can't judge the new timings on one match.

[reposte]

the 2003 World Champ bout against Vanni, the same bout which got a lot of criticism for being so ugly.

I thought so too, but it was actually a very tough bout to go through, some fencers just don't mesh visually well in terms of personal styles, and it is a very well fought technically speaking as well as some tactical thinking, mainly on Joppich's side, although Vanni is the better technician.
I wonder how much of the bad rep the bout received is due to the bad tv coverege.

[reposte]

Watching both the Gyuart Mocek and the Joppich - (Ling?) clips I remain adament the Joppich maybe no poster boy for the classical en guarde but he is much more interesting tactically and fences with brains, although with little regard for aesthetics. His use of remises, fleches and so on is exactly what a smart fencer would do.
I would rather see beautiful en guardes like the Mocek Gyart bout but there was considerably less footage on that one. Joppich's footage exposed him for the very intelligent fencer that he is and to remind you all, foil was designed for brains not for feet. If you want to see footwork and brains and new timings, watch out for our very ownTomer Or, who already took gold at the Copenhagen event which openned the 2005 season beating Cassara for the gold.

[Gav]

I love the subtitles ...

What's wrong with those guys? New timings, shmoo timings - just fence. I see better Fencing in my salle amongst the Foil beginners.

[reposte]

I see better Fencing in my salle amongst the Foil beginners.

You would see better fencing when they are at their salles as well - you can't compare an A grade event to a practice bout. The latter always wins in terms of daring.

[Craig]

On the one hand, that's laughably bad. His confidence in the box is completely shot, the poor guy. I much prefer how the French adapted at the CIP, at least they didn't look like scrubs.
...
His results this year haven't been horrible, but this isn't his old self.

I agree. I need to go through more of the footage to pin down which event this one was. It was early in the season though, which means that fencers were still figuring out the box and timings. Joppich adapted to do what worked for him - which is use fast closing attacks w/remise and obscure direct target from his opponent.

The fencing plus the color effect of the flourescents make the bout look like a lower level bout. The angle isn't great for determining IF distance is being used, but by Joppich closing in most of the time, it looks like that distance didn't really matter so much.

For the 2004 St. Petersburg footage - Walter has a huge article over at the main site (www.fencing101.com) giving his review. This was a teaser taste.

[esskreemr]

That was horrible. The man-plate was particularly aesthetically displeasing. If they were trying to destroy foil's character, they did a good job. Very little footwork, very little blade interaction... They looked like rank beginners unsure of rather or not their points would land.

[Tomas N]

Interesting bout. It seems like a progression of Joppich's style, which already was moving in this direction. There was a long informative exchange about Joppich's style a while back (most of the information was coming from Walter) that dissected Joppich's fencing. Is he wearing a "manplate" on his back too? When I heard that men were wearing them, I thought that it was just on the front. I would guess that it's the combination of the timing changes and his experimenting with the manplate that leads him to this current strategy. For all the openings that he is giving on his back, his opponent doesn't seem to bite. I'll have to watch it again, but it doesn't even look like he's feinting any flick attacks to the back as part of his tactics.

Tomas

[Mr Epee]

Just a note:

Thinking that this is just Joppich is more than a little short sighted.

Top Foilists as a whole DO care very much about how their fencing looks, however they adapt to win.

I can think of several odd (at the time) techiques that started with a couple of German Foil fencers and then spread to everyone else once it was proven that they worked.

[veeco]

Honestly, I think that the problem with Joppich (and his opponent, to a smaller extent) in this bout is that he didn't figure out how to lead with the point.

The comments "What is this? Epee?" doen't really apply. Most intermediate level epee fencers know how to lead with the point and score with a straight hit. The problem in this bout is that Joppich doesn't look like he knows how to do that. I think a more appropriate comment would have been to compare this with "bad epee" because this looks like it. It looks like a bout between beginning epee fencers, like those who've been going at it for one or two years at my salle.

Compare the 2 bouts, Mocek - Guyart and Joppich - ??? which are both on the new timings, and what you see are 2 totally different bouts. This is the result of the adaptation to the new timings. Mocek and Guyart seem to go about it the right way: they use straight attacks and have simplified their angles of approach to the target. Joppich and his opponent have gone the other route.

I suspect that this might be because they both see the timings in a different light, and also to a certain extent based on their pre-timing change styles. The Polish and the French always sort of knew how to hit straight, they just weren't using it, but at least they were taught how to do it when they started fencing. The Germans didn't seem to.