How to defend against fleche

[keith]

Does anybody have any good tips on how to defend against fleches?

t,Keith

[Zilverzmurfen]

Does anybody have any good tips on how to defend against fleches?

t,Keith

Not saying this always works, but I usually try to "duck" and let my opponents run into my blade.

[Fechter1]

Does anybody have any good tips on how to defend against fleches?

t,Keith

You didn't specify which weapon. (Ok, granted, it's most likely not sabre...)
So I'll give you the epee version:

Distance!!!
After that, your standard defenses should work. (Maybe slight preference to opposition in your ripostes)

Or you can preempt the fleche (i.e. don't let your opponent set up for a proper fleche).

Hope that helps

[Symon]

I'm inclined to agree with zmurf i use the duck, jab and hope for the best!!! an epeeist at salisbury Fc is the king of fleche! he has 3 move to his name a fast fleche, slow fleche and some weird fleche with a slight pause in the middle so the duck and jab works for me!

[Harald Kirschner]

"keith" <keith@jiippi.nospam.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:4264eba4$0$323$4d4eb98e@read.news.fi.uu.net.. .
> Does anybody have any good tips on how to defend against fleches?
>
> t,Keith


Hi!

Which weapon - l'épée, I suppose?

I use Quart-Parade if the opponent is right-handed. Sixt if he is
left-handed (because he passes on Your other side).

You may then turn around and hit him on his back.

CU

Harald

Besides Hi to everybody, this is my first massage here on this group.


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[Harold Buck]

In article <3cklc6F6lvhshU1@individual.net>,
"Harald Kirschner" <les_ich_nicht@yahoo.de> wrote:

>
> Harald
>
> Besides Hi to everybody, this is my first massage here on this group.
>


And here I thought someone was pretending to be me and messing up the
spelling!

(Welcome!)

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

[Keith]

"keith" <keith@jiippi.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:4264eba4$0$323$4d4eb98e@read.news.fi.uu.net.. .
> Does anybody have any good tips on how to defend against fleches?
>
> t,Keith
>

Sorry, i forgot to mention, Epee. Also I know the oponent will attempt using
a fleche to score a point. Fleche is his thing! Is there any good way to
make him fleche when I want him to?

[Colin B.]

keith <keith@jiippi.nospam.net> wrote:
> Does anybody have any good tips on how to defend against fleches?

Fence left-handed. Fleches against an opposite-handed opponent are a
pain, since you have to pass on their unarmed side.

Alternatively, keep to the far side of the piste, so that a fleche will
be difficult to pull off without leaving the strip.

I'm told also that stepping into a developing fleche will throw off most
opponents. Others may be able to comment further.

Colin

[oiuyt]

Fleches against an opposite-handed opponent are a
pain, since you have to pass on their unarmed side.

Uhm, sorry, but this simply isn't true. There is no specification about to which side you must fleche.

Answering the original question:

Move. Don't let the flecher get set at his/her proper fleching distance. Constantly vary the distance. Most flechers have a preferred distance and want to be at least mentally set at that physical distance (if not physically set as well).

Crowd the side of the strip that your opponent prefers to fleche to. A correctly executed fleche means that this make absolutely no real difference (the fleche should be straight at you until after it hits, at which point the collision avoidance beings and going off to the side (and possibly off the strip) occurs. However referees will blow more calls (disallowing touches by fleche that should ahve been allowed), and, more importantly, fewer fleches will occur. Fencers have a tendancy to not fleche when doing so to a closed side of the strip. If your opponent doesn't even attempt the fleche that's nearly as good a solution as knowing what to do once the fleche has begun.

Depending on the situation (attack target, handedness, blade contact, distance, etc.) a number of other solutions present themselves to the problem of a fleche once that's what's happening. The vertical displacement mentioned previously, although not one that I prefer, is an option. Deep 4/5 parries are another (set your hand on your back hip with the point in front of the flecher, don't bother to riposte, but wait for the impalation. Riposting is more likely to make you miss than setting your epee the way a pikeman would set his pike against a cavalry charge). Prime, especially a ceding prime against a RH opposition-6 (or LH opposition-4) can be very useful. Against a slower fleche you likely want to step in with this move. If the fleche is from too far away then opening yet more distance with a stophit is very viable. Against most flechers opening distance while parrying just results in an easier disengage either for the initial (now compound) attack or some sort of replacement. It's hard to hold ground against a fleche, but frequently that's the best choice (again, back to horsemen vs infantry, running from the charge is a good way to get killed).

If you want to trigger a fleche, find what distance and in what setting your opponent likes to use it. Create that opportunity when you're ready to deal with the fleche. Make sure it doesn't occur except when you want it to. The theory behind this is similar to "how do you cause a stophit/Attack-in-Prep when you want to play counter-time." Find what triggers the action, trigger it, deal with the action.

Hope that helps.
-B :)
ps come play on fencing.net where you'll get lots more answers

[Harald Kirschner]

>
> (Welcome!)
>
> --Harold Buck
>

Thanks!

Harald Kirschner

[Jonathan Jefferies]

Colin B. wrote:
> keith <keith@jiippi.nospam.net> wrote:
>
>>Does anybody have any good tips on how to defend against fleches?
>
>
> Fence left-handed. Fleches against an opposite-handed opponent are a
> pain, since you have to pass on their unarmed side.
>
> Alternatively, keep to the far side of the piste, so that a fleche will
> be difficult to pull off without leaving the strip.
>
> I'm told also that stepping into a developing fleche will throw off most
> opponents. Others may be able to comment further.
>
> Colin
Are we talking epee or foil?? In epee, being at the greater distance
the practical alternatives that I would use are:
1. make sure not to let your opponent have control of your blade.
They can still fleche but their chances of success are much less.
If they fleche without taking control in either sixth or eighth
you have two opportunities to hit them:
a. to the wrist/arm (it's extended)
b. parry sixth. if need be backup and parry sixth and then riposte
or make the parry a binding parry sixth or eighth with thrust.
2. If they have control of the blade, you have to regain control with
a. a disengagement (possibly moving backward) with thrust to their
wrist/arm or body as distance allows.
b. displacement of your body to avoid their blade (difficult but not
impossible).
3. stepping into the fleche to close the distance is possible but the
heart of a good fleche is the attacker finding a moment of surprise.
So for an epeeists receiving a fleche would (IMHO) rather open the
distance to make time to take control of the blades.

Always take Sun Tzu's commentary on war to heart and forestall your
opponent's plans. If that doesn't work, attack into his preparations.
The first is to keep moving and not allow them to set up a fleche.
The latter deals with attacking just at the moment they start their
attack. Many fencers will raise the blade slightly at the start of an
attack exposing the wrist and opening themselves to preemptive attack to
the wrist. BTW this is heresy to my coach who much prefers to take
the conservative approach and clear the blade with a parry before
thrusting whereas I prefer the wrist shot as a first step followed by
a parry. His approach is probably more sensible.

J.

[arkady_tsep]

Fencing foil I usually end up doing a "bind". Occasionally I can see when a person is about to fleche, but for the most part that's not the case so this little move works for me most of the time when fencing against someone at my skill level or less, and works more often than not when fencing against slightly more advanced. Usually it's a matter of quickness.

To do this once the fleche is initiated, It's performing a bind with the intent of redirecting the blade to pass on either side of you as your opponent passes. If you're quick enough you can sometimes redirect your oppenet's tip away, and manage to get your tip on target for a riposte.

I'll tell you right now, the absolute worst thing that you can do is backup or do a running retreat. When your opponent fleche's if you stand still he has one chance at you. If you start backing up fast or slow, he can continue his fleche and attack, and most of the time he'll end up scoring against you. I strongly suggest just standing firm. Duck? Maybe. Fleche's are quick actions and I'm not fast enough to drop my body out of the attacking line, and it would only really work if your opponent was attacking high which isn't always the case. What you need is a fast effective parry to get the attacking point away for your lame. Once you have that down efficiently, then think about working in the riposte. More often than not, a quick parry in four or six is probably the easiest and most effective thing you can do. Doing a bind works well for me, and sometimes let's me score the riposte. Just don't extend when you do the bind. Keep it close and tight around your opponent's blade. Almost like trying to take his blade.

I hope this makes sense to everyone. This is what works for me. Hopefully it'll work for you.

[rmyounis]

Binds work very well against flechers in epee as well. I usually take one step back as I do the action to give myself enough time and distance to clear the point, but it usually works wonders against opponents that depend on this move. However, I am left-handed, which I feel like makes it easier for me to bind a right-hander's blade to second, or even prime, position. This may be more difficult in a right-right or left-left matchup.

[Joseph Kormann]

keith wrote:
> Does anybody have any good tips on how to defend against fleches?
>
> t,Keith

One response that I've used successfully and which many will consider
insane is to take a prime parry and *lunge*. I've found it to mostly
work for the following reasons:
- They're not expecting it.
- Well all practice lunges to be fast and reflexive so the muscle memory
is there.
- A good prime parry will generally sweep the area ahead of you clearing
their blade to the side.

Disadvantages:
- You're out of reach for the obligatory riposte.
- You're accelerating into their acceleration. Bad things can happen if
the technique and equipment fail simultaneously.

As someone already noted, you don't want to make this into a permanent
habit. It'll work once, maybe twice. Don't expect a third to be 100%
successful.

-Joseph

[nahouw]

Does anybody have any good tips on how to defend against fleches?

t,Keith

Take a prime parry and riposte in 7 by just the turn of the wrist, maybe with a step back, if necessary -- I'm left-handed, and it works either against RH or LH fencers.

Or, my favorite flashier option is prime and riposte by moulinet -- except if their fleche is too fast, or they are left-handed, this doesn't work as often.

[Fechter1]

I'll have to disagree on the use of the prime (as mentioned in the last two posts... If I misread the intentions of the post, I apologise in advance).

The prime in general is not a good primary parry. It leaves too big an opening in your defenses to be used with any kind of consistency agains a competent fencer. My advice (something I try to do myself) is to stick to the standard 4,6 and 8 (or 2) parries as a first line of defense, with 5 and prime as backups (5 for extended attacks into your 4 line, prime as a counter to 6 opposition attacks).

[Symon]

nah you DO NOT want to parry in prime against a fleche, prime is always kept for close quarters fencing!!!

[mrbiggs]

nah you DO NOT want to parry in prime against a fleche, prime is always kept for close quarters fencing!!!

If you close distance against the fleche while parrying 1, it makes sure that the flecher cannot remise, and it sets you up for a close-range riposte. I use it prime all the time against the fleche in foil.

You have to be sure that the flecher is aiming for your chest, though, and that he will not have time to disengage.

[Joseph Kormann]

Symon wrote:
> nah you DO NOT want to parry in prime against a fleche, prime is always
> kept for close quarters fencing!!!
>
>

The purpose of prime in my reply wasn't to continue fencing, it was to
prevent a fleche from landing. A prime is a big, sweeping parry that
when executed in a timely fashion will catch the opponent's blade, as
they go zooming by, keeping the point from hitting you. A counter-attack
isn't the goal, preventing the touch is.

If you want to keep fencing after they fleche past, there are other
techniques already mentioned that will do it. A counter-sixte with a
quick wrist flip is effective, an eight in quatra (I think that's the
right term -- hand supponated, blade in eight), etc.

-Joseph

[Fechter1]

A prime is a big, sweeping parry

Actually, that's exactly the problem. It's big, meaning it's slow (slower than a more compact parry at least), and it's predictable. To me, it's only useful in close quarters (ie. when you've messed up the distance and the opponent is much closer than he/she should be), or as a counter to a sixte opposition. As a stand-alone parry, it's too easily defeated.
And I use my prime to score all the time. Properly executed, it does close out your inside line, while keeping your point in line with low target.