The hand while lunging

[angriff]

Every newbie has heard "HAND FIRST!!!" to death when being taught how to lunge.. However, this has been so deeply ingrained in me that I'm giving myself away when I'm about to lunge or fleche, and either my opponent gets away or worse, lands a stop hit on my outstretched wrist. My coach has also told me to concentrate on extending the hand about the same time as the lead foot and has been working with me on this, but does anyone have any tips to help me out of this problem?

Any advice is much appreciated

[jm_f]

If your opponent is able to hit you on the wrist, it usually means you're not doing it fast enough or you're actually pausing for a couple of microseconds between hand extension and lunging. Try watching an experienced fencer on how it's done. For a newbie on the other end it would look like at one moment he's just on guard and the next his point has touched you.

You should consider (and execute) it as one single action, not a separate hand extension and lunge, but a hand extension quickly followed by the lunge.

[keith]

distance and threat.

moving the hand with the front foot will speed up your action, but also accelerates you into the stop hit. So two thoughts for your problem;

1 you are to close when you initiate your extension (probably only by a couple of inches).

2 you have to be able to deal with the stop hit (which means a take or tempo action) so that your attack is respected by your opponent.

The other issue is were you are extending your threat to. If you are threatening deep then your extension will never get any respect.

[grotto]

angriff,
if your opponent is hitting wrist on your extension you are not closed. By closed I mean your hand and forearm is not entirely behind the bell. You can see this in a mirror while extending at your reflection. If while extending you can see any forearm you can be hit at least two inches farther up than you can see. This typically happen when you lead with the hand without the point. (typical foil extension) I tell my students to "lead with the point" the feeling is that the point is pulling the hand out to extended while it seeks target. Rather than the hand pushing the point out. it keeps the forarm parallel to the floor (more or less) and makes the extension smoother.

hope this helps

[fencingguy]

Actually, to disagree with the first part of Keith's post, I would think you might actually be too far away when you extend. This would give your opponent more time to see the action begin and make his/her stop hit. It's also a more common problem for beginners to be too far away than to be too close as the tend to get hit a lot more when they're on top of their opponent.

Try experimenting with the distance when you're fencing, starting your lunge at what feels like far, normal and close distance. Pay attention to what happens. Are you getting hit? how? when? Then analyze what is the most effective and try to repeat it. Keep in mind, however, that "correct" distance will vary depending on you and your opponent.

It's also possible you're lunging with no reason to do so. On top of the good suggestions above on how to fix your actual lunge, try using preparations to create the right distance and timing for your lunge. Hit your opponent when they're stepping forward, not when they're moving away.

[keith]

Originally Posted by fencingguy

Actually, to disagree with the first part of Keith's post, I would think you might actually be too far away when you extend. This would give your opponent more time to see the action begin and make his/her stop hit. It's also a more common problem for beginners to be too far away than to be too close as the tend to get hit a lot more when they're close.

fair point actually, is the opponent hitting your extended arm with a simple extension or with a lunge to the hand?

[veeco]

Hand first doesn't mean your feet should come second :-)

Ideally you should be doing the arm extension, lifting the front leg, and pushing with the back leg all at the same time. It's a coordination issue.

Coaches usually teach the "hand first" routine to their students because it's easy to pick the bad habit of extending too late. Also, the drawbacks of extending a little too early are smaller than the drawbacks of extending too late. Finally, you are more precise with your point when you extend first and then lunge, so it helps with the beginners' accuracy which is usually not great in the first lessons.

[jBirch]

To add to the great comments already, if you are getting stop hit to the wrist that means that you are either extending after your hand starts going (slow extension kind of thing) or your are impaling yourself on your opponent's point by going for deep target. In epee, risk increases the farther away the target is.

As well, why is your opponent able to stop hit there? Haven't you taken care of their blade with opposition or feints? A lunge is designed to carry you through to the target, not through the opponent's weapon with impunity. This is epee after all. *grin*

I do want to caution you about trying to blend the foot and the hand together. Uber fencers don't. The hand is always out and extended (in a simple direct attack) a micro-second at least before the tip passes the opponent's bell. If you try to blur your hand/feet together you'll end up bringing target to your opponent and just make the problem worse. What they do do, however, is not hesitate at all. The extension into the lunge should be smooth and it sounds like yours is very broken.

Hope this helps.

James.

[Fechter1]

What always helps me to refine my attacking technique (purely from the motor skill side) is this:

Don't think of it as 'Hand first, then feet', but rather think of it as getting your point to the target in as short a time as possible. Some of you might say "well, duh" right about now, but a lot of fencers get caught up in the mechanics of an attack rather than concentrating on the final intention.

To train the motor memory on this, stand en guarde and have someone physically pull your point out. Slowly at first to get the feel for it, then at higher speeds. Sometimes closing the eyes helps. This should get the hand almost fully extended before the feet start moving (closing distance with hand, ie. extension, is always faster than doing so with the feet, not to mention easier). It should also produce a smoother transfer from the hands to the feet (to eliminate any pause after extension).
Then try to reproduce the sequence without the help.

Whenever I do one of these routines, my lunges and fleches get just a little bit quicker.

Hope this helps.

[KD5MDK]

I think "Hand First" is based mostly off of teaching foil, where lunging without extending is much worse than extending too soon, and where a stop hit to the wrist is at worst an off target, and usually out of priority.

[Aestro]

I have felt that hand first also provides a much better sense of distance as well as accuracy. Once your attack is out there, you know exactly how long it is and it's simply up to your legs to deliver the rest of it. Of course in RoW in foil it's super-doubly important, but it has its uses in epee too. This is of course contrasted with the possibility of your attack being noticed too soon, but that's what disengages are for. I think hand first also lets your opponent see your attack, which allows for a more believable disengage. Plus it means fewer bruises to my ribs.