Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

Eileen · 07-01-2002, 08:04 PM

Sorry, I've forgotten their real name. They are small devices that plug into where your body cord would go. You need one for each fencer. They have a small light and make a buzzing sound when you hit.

Anyway I just played around with some of these yesterday and though they were *not* grounded (the manufacturer had mentioned they would be) everyone agreed that they were worth the purchase price to be able to fence electrically at our convenience at a park near the beach.

Anyone else try these? I believe there is also a foil version though it does not register on or off target.

I think they could be a help to small clubs who can't afford more than one (or even just one) scoring box.

MikeHarm · 07-01-2002, 08:08 PM

I have both the foil and epee buzzers. Fun toys, it does help ya learn when you're not setting the point or landing flat when fencing with your electric foils which might be one of the problems you can run into if you just practice dry at your club if ya don't have a box yet.

Eileen · 07-01-2002, 08:33 PM

Do yours ground?

MikeHarm · 07-02-2002, 08:38 AM

The foil one didn't and it was buzzing on the guard. I haven't run into someone else who has one of the epee onces so I haven't gotten to test it out yet.

engardemisami · 07-02-2002, 08:49 AM

I've tried both foil and epee "buzz boxes" and none of them are grounded. There is just no way to. They will both buzz on off-target areas. They still make for good practice with flicks. I returned mine because I realized I preferred properly wired opponents just to keep my hits honest.

Eileen · 07-02-2002, 10:19 AM

Yeah, we couldn't figure out how they could be grounded in such a small mechanism. I wasn't the one who ordered it so didn't see the claim.

Still, they are handy, especially when you've got 2 fencers with itchy epee fingers but not enough time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Found the name for those who might be interested: it's the Mini-01 by Favero. Made in Italy.

[ 07-03-2002, 06:24 AM: Message edited by: Eileen ]

damianip · 07-02-2002, 10:25 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Eileen:
Yeah, we couldn't figure out how they could be guarded in such a small mechanism. I wasn't the one who ordered it so didn't see the claim.

Still, they are handy, especially when you've got 2 fencers with itchy epee fingers but not enough time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Found the name for those who might be interested: it's the Mini-01 by Favero. Made in Italy.<hr /></blockquote>I have that one but I also have picked up one from PBT which I prefer.

The PBT plugs into your body cord instead of your weapon socket. Feels better than having it attached to the weapon and it doesn't take as much of a beating.

Paolo

lochinvar · 07-02-2002, 10:26 AM

Eileen:

It is impossible to "ground" the buzz-boxes so that they will not register hits to the bell or blade of your opponent's weapon. That would require a grounding connection between your opponent's weapon and your buzz-box, and vice versa.

This means that you would have two wires running between you, one from you to them and another from them to you.

I suppose you could rig something similar to the "bungee cord" type of scoring set-ups (the ones that don't use reels), but that's the only way.

I've actually been thinking about this very problem and am currently trying to figure a way to eliminate the box altogether and have each fencer carry his/her own apparatus. I'll let you know what I come up with.

Other than that, I really like the buzz-box idea--at least for epee. Though they are of limited use in bouting, they are good practice tools for point control drills...as Mike already mentioned.

Eileen · 07-02-2002, 10:56 AM

Definitely let us know what you come up with Lochinvar.

I agree, these present ones are great for epee "fun" bouting or for certain drills but they don't replace a true reel system.

Paolo, I do like the sound of one that attaches to a body cord, I'll have to check that one out as I have a friend who might want to buy one of his own.

suregrip · 07-02-2002, 12:12 PM

At my club, there is some open space (a fake strip) that does not have a box. We use the testers for that area. It's a poor-mans substitute for a scoring machine.

JEC · 07-03-2002, 03:19 PM

There are two types of epee buzzers. One that makes a noise for 1 sec (which is anoying, but probably preferable for a practice bout) and another that last for only 0.1 sec, which allows you to practice hitting the arm. The circuit would not be able to be grounded or discard a late touch. Your ear can discard late touches but your opponent honesty (truthfulness) would be required for off target hits in highly contested bouts. Nevertheless, it is tough to fence with them if you do attacks to the advancing foot (foot or piste?)

Inquartata · 07-03-2002, 07:51 PM

I must say, loch, that I hope you don't succeed. It's a very short step from "Each fencer will bear his own apparatus" to " Each fencer must provide ( ie purchase ) his own apparatus". And more individual expense I don't need! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Gav · 07-04-2002, 01:43 AM

Intriguing point Inq'. I know that wireless Sabre kit has already been developed. Does anyone out there know why Sabre when the Epee circuit is so muh simpler?

Can you imagine how bad kit testing at the beginning of a bout could be if everyone had to supply their own box?

Is it the weapon? Is it the bodychord? Is it the box? Is it interference on the frequency between the 2 boxes?

Then there's the issue of tamepering. I imagine even if we did shift to small wireless boxes that tourney organisers would still have to provide the scoring equipment precisely because of the danger of cheating.

Cyranox11 · 07-04-2002, 05:52 AM

Hi Gav
The difficulty with epee foil (as far as I am aware) is that of floor/guard vs legit hits (epee) and target vs off target vs floor/guard (foil). In short, in sabre its easy: sabre hits lame=light anything else is neutral.
In epee you need to differentiate hits between the floor/guard and hits to the target, in foil you need to differentiate between off and on target AS WELL AS hits to the floor/guard.

No-one can solve the vexed issue of the floor/guard being invalid target areas. This does not apply in sabre as the 'circuit' is different: the weapon touching the lame 'closes' the 'circuit' anything else leaves it 'open'. In epee closing the switch in the tip closes the circuit, but how do you tell the scoring apparatus not to register hits on the floor/guard if there is no 'earth' to over-ride the system?

Gav · 07-04-2002, 06:31 AM

ahh I see! Well us Epeeists have got on OK without grounded strips for a while. We don't have any at our club we just employ a spare fencer for that (same with tourney's). But how to detect guard hits... I imagine we would have to change the way Epee's are wired up, which would probably means that vendors could hike up the prices... Hmmm All of a sudden I don't think it's a good idea at all.

Sud · 07-09-2002, 11:59 PM

Impossible is such a strong word...

I'd like to throw an idea into the mix and suggest a workable buzz-box that works as if it is grounded, but doesn't require any wires between the fencers. (except those in the weapons)

First, take epee. Each fencer's buzz box applies an AC signal to the weapon ground pin, say about 1kHz. Whenever the tip is closed, all you have to do is test whether the tip is receiving an AC signal - if it is, you've hit the other fencer's guard, so no buzz. Because it's an AC signal, you don't need a common ground

Now foil. You can do the same thing, but for extra marks, also apply an AC signal of another frequency to each lame. By checking the frequency of the AC signal, you know whether you hit their guard or their lame, or neither (off-target). Add different buzz tones for on and off target and you've got a pretty neat system. It wouldn't be an anti-blocking system, though.

An 8-pin microcontroller, like a Microchip 12C508A could easily handle this.

Just a thought.

lochinvar · 07-10-2002, 08:42 AM

An interesting concept, Sud, and one that bears further exploration.

A few questions:

1. How does one derive an AC signal from a DC device?
The buzzbox would have to be battery powered, and therefore by definition DC. So even with a microcontoller that can generate a simulated AC signal (which is a technical problem in itself), one still requires a reference ground for the DC side of the equation.

2. Taking epee as the simplest model, if one applies an AC current to the blade of weapon A, then when the circuit at the tip closes buzzbox A will receive its own AC signal. If the two buzzboxes are set to the same frequency, buzzbox A will not be able to distinguish between the signal coming from itself a signal that comes from weapon B.
Even if the two weapons are set to different frequencies (not a major problem: imagine a knob selector on the side of the box) buzzbox A will always receive either it’s own frequency only (if it hits proper target) or a signal made up of the combined frequencies (if it hits the bell or blade of weapon B).
The device will therefore need to be able to distinguish between a “pure” frequency (a valid hit) and a modulated frequency (a hit to the guard or blade).

3. What would be the power requirements for a switching device that can modulate a DC current to simulate an AC signal? How much heat would it generate? How much current would it need? The device would be be both annoying and expensive to operate if one had to change or charge the battery after every bout.

I don’t even want to get into foil scoring…

JEC · 07-10-2002, 09:35 AM

At Nationals, there was a demonstration of wireless Epee. Unfortunately, I did not see it, but Joe Byrnes (our senior armorer) told me that it consisted of a complete electrical mask and body suit/lame. Obviously, the problem would be the cost and probably a more rapid tear/wear of the lame using Epee, which makes it impractical.

goldbaker · 07-10-2002, 02:35 PM

I don't know how this stuff works, but would it be possible to build a buzzbox device for foil that would only register on-target hits? Would that type of device be able to distinguish between the guard/blade and the lame?

Peach · 07-10-2002, 03:36 PM

At the Peabody World Cup, I saw a very little bit of a wireless demo of sabre fencing--the masks seemed to have lights on them. I wasn't close enough to make out the details and I was busy at the time.