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D'Artagnan1673 · 07-01-2002, 08:00 AM

For those of you who have been on this board for a while, you know that I regularly harp on the fact that my club doesn't have a coach. A friend is struggling with this right now in that he doesn't feel like he's getting any better at foil. He likes Epee and delves into it from time to time. I am trying to convince him that if he wants to see improvement in his fencing that he needs to switch to Epee with me.

I say this because in my limited observations, I feel that a person can learn to fence with the Epee in a proficient manner by just having another fencer there to fence with. The two people can give good critique on basics. Other than that, there isn't much else to the weapon. With its lack of conventions, Epee is a weapon that a fencer in our position can excel at.

As far as learning, I haven't had much with Epee, yet I am good enough to get my E in my first competition.

I am not trying to push Epee on this person in order to have an addtional Epeeist to practice with. He wants to fence the weapon and I am just trying to give him a positive push in that direction.

Let me know what you think.

D'Artagnan1673 · 07-01-2002, 08:01 AM

Okay, yes I would love to have an additional Epeeist in my pool, but that isn't my only reason.

damianip · 07-01-2002, 10:05 AM

D'Art,

Uh, yeah, I'm gonna have to disagree with you here.

It's a rare individual who can teach him/herself épée and be good at it. The very fact that there are no conventions demands that the actions learned and used be correct and efficient.

Small mistakes have large consequences. There's a good chance that neither you nor your training partner will pick up these mistakes and they will become ingrained in your repertoire. Then they will require a lot of work to correct.

Épée is less forgiving of small technical errors than the other weapons.

I know these things because I'm currently working with a coach to round out my game and correct the technical weaknesses I've developed after "figuring it out" after switching from foil.

Paolo

D'Artagnan1673 · 07-01-2002, 10:13 AM

I could be that rare individual

damianip · 07-01-2002, 11:10 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
I could be that rare individual

<hr /></blockquote>Or not.

D'Artagnan1673 · 07-01-2002, 11:56 AM

Bebop and Rocksteady · 07-01-2002, 01:24 PM

Epee and foil technique aren't really that much different, besides having to protect your sword arm while on guard, being careful when parrying 4 and 1 so you don't expose yourself, and the idea of attacking anywhere on the body. Since the two are so alike, if he's no good in foil, how would it be any different in epee?

Sure, I guess you could help him along the way with his fencing, but unless your an experienced teacher, there's only so much you can do. Perhaps one of your older, more experienced epeeists can help?

swordsen · 07-01-2002, 03:04 PM

Quoth Bebop "Epee and foil technique aren't really that much different...."
I used to think the same way. It is only superficially true. They are very different.

As for the teach yourself epee, well, it is easier to teach oneself epee than any of the other weapons. But don't expect to get really good at it on your own.

Sildar · 07-01-2002, 04:34 PM

Hi Dart-

I have to agree with damainip and swordsen. You can get fairly good by self teaching, but to really understand epee a good coach is indispensible; otherwise you will soon run into the same problem as you mentioned with foil; you soon feel (and rightly so) that you aren't getting any better, because you get locked into the same personlized and limited style that you've developed. Epee requires a very different mindset from foil, and many subtle but crucial differences in technique application. If you can travel to take a few lessons from someone who really knows epee, it would be well worth it.

The Crazy Wacker · 07-01-2002, 06:35 PM

I started epee, got hooked on it, Not many lessons... hell, not as many lessons as i had with foil (i musta took 100 foil lessons, and only around 15 epee), and i'm actualy better with epee! I think that just sparring with an epee is enough teaching, i find it to be pretty much self-taught. Although some people have showed me a few tricks (i.e. using the bigger outside part of the bell-guard to your advantage), i don't use them much.

fred · 07-01-2002, 08:28 PM

I also used to think that you could adapt foil technique, or learn as you go...the average fencer probably can learn enough to maybe even rate a D in epee, but if you have designs on serious competition, you will need coaching. As Paolo says, it's even more important in epee to have the little things right, because there is no director there to bail you out with a call, and no off-target, either.

I know people will dispute me on this, but I believe that a good measure of how good you are is what level of success you have against taller epeeistas. It's pretty easy, I've found, to apply even bad technique to smaller opponents of similar skill and be able to manage, and have the exact same type of fencing against a taller fencer, again, of similar skill, result in losing touches by a 1:2 ratio or more. As anyone who has fenced for a length of time is aware, you see a lot of tall, lanky people fencing epee, so you can't avoid dealing with the issue of being at a reach disadvantage.

If you don't have an epee coach available, of course one shouldn't give up on learning the weapon. I just would suggest that it's unlikely that you will be able to make yourself a Div I epee fencer however much drilling you might do with a similarly unschooled partner.

[ 07-02-2002, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: fred ]

bynadutch · 07-02-2002, 01:32 AM

I am not a huge epee fan, but I do love to compete using it. It is just a lot of fun to try something new. Personally I am a foilist, witha penchant for for sabre... but when i was forced by my coach to compete with his best student at epee with only around 6 hours of training (total)... I used my foil skills to pull off a win. But all that aside, I have to agree with most of the other people, I think that epee (good epee) needs to be taught by a coach. At least, if you want to get really good.
my two cents, for what they are worth.

Pierfrancesco · 07-02-2002, 02:00 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by fred:
As anyone who has fenced for a length of time is aware, you see a lot of tall, lanky people fencing epee, so you can't avoid dealing with the issue of being at a reach disadvantage.<hr /></blockquote>yep i'm one of those! i had my first epee lesson the other night, while its certainly easier in one respect (no right of way crap to think about) theres so many other things to focus on - the most important one not getting hit. and not doing a 'parry risposte off target' after a year of foil!!

D'Artagnan1673 · 07-02-2002, 06:54 AM

I am going to do my best to hit a fencing camp every summer and winter. I can also hit some of the Houston club's on evenings and get instruction from them every few months. Other than that, we are pretty isolated out here.

What I do have is a keen feel for the weapon, books on its technique, and my observations. I hope that with that much, I can make something of myself.

To be honest, I don't know if becomming a Div I fencer is that important to me. I am coming to a point in my life when I have found the person I want to spend the rest of my life with. I am ready to learn to devote my time and money to other things. Still, I wouldn't mind being one of the top Epeeists in the Gulf Coast.

Zelda · 07-02-2002, 08:08 AM

D'Art, I sometimes find fencing camps are ok, however they sometimes confuse you. (well me at least.)

D'Artagnan1673 · 07-02-2002, 08:28 AM

really? Hmmm...... that wouldn't be good.

suregrip · 07-02-2002, 11:38 AM

Hey guys -

I never held a foil in my hand except for maybe one or two lessons. At that point, my coach removed the foil from my hands and gave me an epee instead. I have been trained in epee from the ground up, tiny moves, arm target, you all know the differences. Typically, in tournaments, I do quite well against foil fencers, who sometimes execute foil moves that leave them wide open. My hugest stumbling block was fencing very tall opponents, which I have made considerable progress on. (The tiny steps really do work). Anyway, my son and daughter fence foil. At times, the moves they execute make as little sense to me as my moves make to them. Just because epee does not have specific targets or right of way does not make it a 'bashing' weapon.

three_hundred_fifty_five · 07-02-2002, 12:10 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
I could be that rare individual

<hr /></blockquote>Reality check, compete in any epee competition. Bring some jam because you will most likely be toasted.

D'Artagnan1673 · 07-02-2002, 12:37 PM

I did, here read the results for yourself.

<a href="http://www.spindletopcavaliers.org/Fencing/Tournaments/Clear%20Lake%20spring%202002.htm" target="_blank">http://www.spindletopcavaliers.org/Fencing/Tournaments/Clear%20Lake%20spring%202002.htm</a>

My first name is Jeremy

Granted, it was an Unrated event. However, considering I've never had an epee lesson in my life and I'd only been fencing epee for about a month or two, I don't think I did too bad.

[ 07-02-2002, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: D'Artagnan1673 ]

D'Artagnan1673 · 07-02-2002, 12:40 PM

btw, back when I said I was that rare individual, the big grin signified that I was joking around.