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JEC · 07-02-2002, 05:38 PM

D'art (Jeremy)
You could also come to San Antonio. Our salle (Pouj) has some of the top epeeists in the division, and some poor like me. Incidentally, I'm at Nationals with my son who is competing. Robert Reed from our salle won the Division IA Men's Epee. He is also our divisional champ and he fences everybody. He is truly a very nice guy

.
Jose

135711 · 07-02-2002, 09:23 PM

d'art, you know i thought about this for a while, and believe it or not, i see the logic in this, if you know that there are certain don'ts about the sport, like, you're not supposed to push your weapon's tip forward on the strip during a competition [as did another recently rated eppeeist did], nor are you supposed to drag it backward on the strip as i did during a march competition, however, since the target is so broad for an epeeist, you can sort of have at it, without too much problem, given that you must have developed over the years some technique somewhere in some weapon. but of course, it would also stand to reason that you would most likely lose to an excellent epeeist, unless of course you are a natural athelete, in which case your reflexes would be so lightening fast that it certainly would not matter if you had a lesson or not. in fact, [ouch], i know a certain person who goes to club for years and years without taking any lessons, there are many people who take no lessons whatsoever, yet they have a good time fencing. well d'art. i just finished studying a little bit more in my big book of fencing, hope this helps. i like your picture d'art, you seem like a good kid, i hope you find a coach.

[ 07-03-2002, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: 135711 ]

three_hundred_fifty_five · 07-02-2002, 10:37 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
btw, back when I said I was that rare individual, the big grin signified that I was joking around.<hr /></blockquote>Oh yeah, I knew that. It's okay to kid around.

Try fencing in an open event. You should get smoked to perfection. Don't forget the barbecue sauce.

Gav · 07-03-2002, 04:08 AM

I've read these posts with interest. In general I agree with the general consensus - get a coach.

It's a very common misconception that: Epee = foil, with a heavier weapon. Although you can get away with a lot if you are an excellent Foilist (think flicking with the right kind of Epee), in general you will get destroyed by a 1/2 decent Epeeist. The same goes the other way, although I would expect to do reasonably well when doing Foil I wouldn't expect to defeat a good Foilist, in fact I would expect them to destroy me. I know of at least one really good Epeeist who has turned up at a couple of Foil events expecting to do well and been put out in the 1st round and then competed at Epee the following day and done exceptionally!

I had the, "Do you need a coach or not?" discussion in the pub with a fellow fencer who is thinking of training to be a coach the other day. The responsibility of the coach is to pass his/her experience from one generation to another and to encourage that generation perform to the best of their abiities. If you have no experience there's not much to pass on except your expectations.

If you've no option but to train amongst yourselves then take it carefully. Avoid the mentor/pupil aspect [where one is always the teacher]and concentrate on mutual advancement [take turns]. Any corrections you make to your fellow trainee must be carefully judged, and only make that correction if you're absolutely sure you're right. Personally I'd work on repitition, "I need 100 stop hits please." You can learn a lot.

D'art, you mention a club with a coach that you can occasionally get to. My advice would be to get there as much as possible. A good Epee coach can teach you much and in turn that will be reflected when you are training with you're friend.

D'Artagnan1673 · 07-03-2002, 06:10 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JEC:
D'art (Jeremy)
You could also come to San Antonio. Our salle (Pouj) has some of the top epeeists in the division, and some poor like me. Incidentally, I'm at Nationals with my son who is competing. Robert Reed from our salle won the Division IA Men's Epee. He is also our divisional champ and he fences everybody. He is truly a very nice guy

.
Jose<hr /></blockquote>He he, This up and coming year, I am going to try to make the Salle' Pouj tournament. I intend to get utterly creamed.

Yea, you put me in an open event and I probably won't be in the winners circle.

swordsen · 07-03-2002, 07:40 AM

There was a A epeeist slumming in the Div III foil in greenville. He made the top 32 and probably would have made 16 if he hadn't had alot of weapons go screwy on him in his last bout.

D'Artagnan1673 · 07-03-2002, 07:54 AM

He he, its like me toying around with a club saber. My best move is to stop hit to the hand.

Gav, that was a lot of good advice you gave in your post..... I'll keep it in mind. I think its time to fence a little foil because my form is getting lax. I'm still doing well, but I know that I could really be a killer if I quit fencing with my back arm down and my guard low.

Okay, there's another question.....

How many of you epeeists really keep that traditional stance? My traditional stance is my bread and butter in foil. It makes my moves very consise and fatal to my advesary, okay a bit of an exaggeration, but you get my point. Tomorrow, I'll post some current pics of my epee style since my wonderful girlfriend took two rolls, one with her new and fancy camera. You'll see that for all of my harping, I look pretty modern.

D'Artagnan1673 · 07-03-2002, 08:03 AM

Okay, here's a picture of me from last year when I was really good at foil. That's my coach back when he was able to devote more time to fencing.

I'm trying to remember the action. By the picture, you'd think we were practicing a simple lunge drill, but it was actually taken in mid bout. I think he was waiting for me to try to take his blade, but I just went straight for the lunge.... something like that.

<img src="http://www.spindletopcavaliers.org/Fireworks/Photos/jcvsfsinclair.jpg" alt=" - " />

D'Artagnan1673 · 07-03-2002, 08:05 AM

If anyone has pictures they'd like to post for others to see, but don't have a website to link it to, pm me and I'll give you an email address to send them to. I'll then host them on my website and give you the url for them.

I really like seeing other people's fencing actions. It allows us to get a better idea of who we are talking to, rather than just a group of nerds sitting behind a computer station.

Gav · 07-03-2002, 08:49 AM

Hey D'art,

Hmmm, I'm not sure what you mean by the 'traditional' on guard. Foil and Epee have always [to my knowledge] been taught with the same guard. However, I would tweak the on-guard in this way [for modern foil to *ahem* modern Epee]. The point should be only slightly up, just enough to clear the guard, and pointing at the bicep of your opponent. The forearm itself should more or less level with the floor. The arm can be slightly extended [more than foil] or even fully extended. Your stance shouldn't be as low as it tends to be in Foil - this is due to the knee being a valid target, but remember that if your legs are too straight you will lose mobility.

Some general Foil to Epee points:
Don't over commit your attack - try and hold something in reserve.
Don't attack with a bent arm [in the current foil way] - Epeeists love it.
Don't get too close. Foil's distance is point to chest, Epee is point to advanced target (Knee, wrist).
Don't over lunge. Epee lunges are generally shorter for exactly the same reasons why you don't over commit. However most Epeeists I know [me included] have a range of lunges and arm positions we employ so this can be highly variable.
Don't do the Foil flick, arm bent point arcing forward, unless you KNOW what you are doing. It is possible to flick in Epee but always advisable if you are new to it.
Stop hits ARE valid. No right of way idiocy. Forget about right of way, never make a plan and expect a decent Epeeist to be predictable. Always have something in reserve just in case, I can't stress this enough. World cup Epee may be decided in 2 moves but you can bet your breeches that these guys know what to do if you pull something unexpected.

I might have over laboured a few points but I hope you get the message.

D'Artagnan1673 · 07-03-2002, 09:39 AM

I'm feeling good, because all of those pointers where things that I knew

.

I have found at least one instance when fencing foil style in Epee works: When your opponent has never fenced epee before and super skinny (i.e. no real arm target) and super fast. I nearly lost in the semis to such a guy. I finally stopped fencing epee against him and went all out lunge, recover, lunge till I hit him. After about 5-8 points of that, he was much more tame and I finished him off with my trademark leaping back manuver where I do a ballet style ( I say this in my most masculine voice ) backwards jump with my upper body leaning forward to stopthrust to the hand. The last touch was a here one minute, gone the next touch right under the bell.

You are right, though, epee is highly inpredictable and you must have as many contingencies as possible. Roger Crosnier says in Fencig with the Epee that it is impossible to right a book that says if this then that since epee is so highly unpredictable.

135711 · 07-08-2002, 05:10 PM

the foilists en garde is different from the epeeists en garde, and the lunge you showed us here looks very epee-ish, very all or nothing at all in sixte lunge. the thing about epee that i find appealing {little pun here] is that you can go for broke completely, and score a point, double touches are great, you need lessons to perfect it but you can hack away in a salle knowing that you don't need right of way and that the whole body is a valid target. that's all i meant. i really like the epee weapon as well, the bell is superb, i like the idea of being able to score a touch on the hand, it seems like it must be the most difficult point, for more experienced fencers. i should get a lighter epee, just replace the blade? hmmmm let me think.

swordsen · 07-08-2002, 08:19 PM

Ok, if you really want/have to teach yourself epee I have a suggestion for you.
get Elaine Cheris's book. Use it well. I bought it at nationals and am quite impressed. It has been placed on my list of books that I will use constantly. It is designed for relative beginers and explains things very well without getting into politacal diatribes about things. She discusses actions and explains how to do them in foil and why they are done differently for epee and how to do them.
A very good book.

JEC · 07-08-2002, 11:16 PM

I also agree with the recommendation for Elaine Cheris' book (Fencing: Steps to Success). Her approach is quite useful to a self trained fencer. Each step has several drills and you could augment the level of difficulty. Despite being geared primarily to the beginner fencer, some of the drills are quite good even for the highly experienced fencer (I'm told). I have over 20 fencing treaties, and I would rate this one as the best "modern competitive" introductory text on fencing. However, sooner or later you will need lessons to correct mistakes, and in fact, it can be easily argued that if you do not do that every few weeks, you would be training and learning how to reproduce your mistakes. One can not learn fencing but by fencing (in the same manner one cannot learn sailing from a book without actually sailing while supervised). You need to be corrected by a trained fencer (preferably a coach) that carefully observes you. In your area, you could also talk to Bill Trapani (Kingwood) or take an occasional lesson with Andrey Geva (salle Mauro).

D'Artagnan1673 · 07-09-2002, 08:30 AM

Here is a typical D'Artagnian lunge. This isn't the desperate, gotta hit lunge though.

<img src="http://www.spindletopcavaliers.org/Fireworks/Photos/Fencing/fencing.jpg" alt=" - " />

swordsen · 07-09-2002, 09:10 AM

Not a bad lunge, You should try not to come up on your back toe like that though. And it is hard to tell by the photo but it looks as though your upper body may be leaning a bit to far inside and hence off center and out of balence.

D'Artagnan1673 · 07-09-2002, 09:22 AM

Yes, the first thing I noticed in the picture is that I roll my back foot too much. Thank you for the input on the leaning. I really can't tell from the picture but I think that you are right.

My coach, when he's there, always says that I have a real problem with my distance once I lunge. He says that I roll and drag my foot along the strip, causing me to be that much closer to the counterattack when it comes.

edew · 07-09-2002, 09:58 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
Yes, the first thing I noticed in the picture is that I roll my back foot too much. Thank you for the input on the leaning. I really can't tell from the picture but I think that you are right.

My coach, when he's there, always says that I have a real problem with my distance once I lunge. He says that I roll and drag my foot along the strip, causing me to be that much closer to the counterattack when it comes.<hr /></blockquote>Several things:

1) Move those bags from behind the defender. There's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

2) It's not so much that your back foot is rolling over as much as it is your front leg is not correctly positioned. You stopped short with the front leg (need to practice longer lunges), and tried to compensate for the short distance by stretching that extra two inches or so. It's that extra two inches that, by pushing off the back leg, will take thirty minutes to complete, and will allow your opponents to do whatever he or she wants with your blade and body. Your front foot should be one foot-length ahead.

3) Swordsen is right that you appear to be tipping over to your left (inside part of your body). That could be part of the over-reaching bit.

4) Your opponent needs to be better grounded. (Advice, especially free ones, should be given to all
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )

D'Artagnan1673 · 07-09-2002, 10:52 AM

I will remember to work on the front leg tonight.

I am not sure about the coach's bag, but the mirror was moved to a safer place last week; the guy on the right ran into twice in the past week.

What do you mean by improperly grounded? My guess is that you mean that he shouldn't be leaning backward so much as he is.

D'Artagnan1673 · 07-09-2002, 10:57 AM

Here's another lovely picture for anyone to critique if you wish

Any and all input is greatly appreciated!

<img src="http://www.spindletopcavaliers.org/Fireworks/Photos/Gallery/double.jpg" alt=" - " />