calling all french grip epee fencers.....

[UTEpee]

hello all,
I have recently gone back to french grip for fencing epee at practice. i still use pistol grip for serious bouts/tournaments and such. anyway, i seem to have trouble picking the wrist, and somewhat with general point control while using the french, and then temporarily after switching back to pistol. my question is, is this lack of point control due to the switching between grips? also, if i used french exclusively to improve my point work there, should i anticipate problems when using pistol? ive been fencing almost a year, and have used pistol almost exclusively, excepting a month or so when first learning what to do.

thanks

[veeco]

Make sure you are holding the grip correctly. There are numerous threads on the subject, try a search to see if you can find anything. A quick search found this one:

http://www.fencing101.com/vb/showthr...ht=french+grip

But there are lots of other ones.

[lochinvar]

Remember that exercise is activity specific.

You use different muscles in your hand and arm and/or use them in slightly different ways when developing point control with an orthopedic grip vs. a french grip. Therefore you can anticipate a "re-learning curve" problem when moving from one to the other as your muscles reacquire their "muscle memory" for the grip you are currently using, even if you have skill with both. This will be true to a certain extent even when moving from one orthopedic grip to another, although it won't be as pronounced as when moving from french to ortho and back since the differences aren't as extreme.

My advice would be that if you are going to compete seriously you should decide on one or the other and train with it exclusively. Either that or just resign yourself to some period of poorer point control each time you change, in either direction.

[remise]

I was a below-average epee fencer with a pistol grip. I am also short. After watching a fencer with a French grip on the strip, I was taken with the grace and style of the French grip and I switched. I have never gone back.

I have to tell you, however, that it has taken me about a year to 'relearn' how to 'steer' the weapon. My coach told me I'd have to invest about 18 months or I'd be wasting my time and his. It has been well worth it.

Fencing at my salle is one thing, now. If only I could not be so nervous during tournaments. But one thing at a time, I suppose............

[glowstix]

due to weapon malfunction once at practice, i had to borrow a club's left handed epee for fencing that night. it was a good experience and i made a few observations afterwards:

1. i gripped it using 2 methods: pommelling and conventional. while using the conventional method, my point control was horrible while my disengages were almost as good as my russian grip; when i pommelled, my point control was excellent but disengages were horrible and messy and too big. also, the extra reach was cool.

2. the french definitely uses different muscles and thus i was sore in areas of my forearm that never got sore with the russian.

3. contrary to popular belief, you do NOT have to worry about your opponents strong beats since you can easily derobe.

it was a good experience using the french grip for a change. if i had some money now i would probably buy one of those leon paul carbon fibre grips and a new epee blade just to experiment; i think it would be worth it. i think both grips have value and there isn't a clear advantage; you just have to learn to use each one.

[Victor]

As has been noted, you're using slightly different muscles in slightly different ways. It's a learned skill set like any other action; you're going to need some training time to smooth out the actions.

[howtobrew]

The Uhlmann pistol grip made my hand and forearm ache after an evenings fencing. Going back to the french grip (which I hadn't used in 20 years) solved the problem, and my point control improved. It was like riding a bike.

I have tried the LP Carbon Fiber and can't recommend it. To me, it feels exactly like fencing with a broom. I have tried a friend's Belgian pistol grip, and I like the way it feels (very French-like in the fingers). I am thinking I will buy one of those and swap it for the Carbon Fiber grip on the LP epee.

Btw, the Carbon Fiber grip is mostly wood (pine) painted black, with a thin carbon fiber shell and wrapped with foam tape. If the carbon fiber is there for more crush strength for the handle, I think they could have just chosen a stronger wood (like maple, ash, or oak) and saved everyone $20.

[Tomas N]

Originally Posted by glowstix

3. contrary to popular belief, you do NOT have to worry about your opponents strong beats since you can easily derobe.

Your ability to anticipate beats must be quite remarkable glowstix. I've found that a properly executed beat impossible to derobe. What's your technique?

Tomas

[striker]

Originally Posted by Tomas N

Your ability to anticipate beats must be quite remarkable glowstix. I've found that a properly executed beat impossible to derobe. What's your technique?

Tomas

This is a very valid question. I do not think there is an easy answer for this.
The only solution that I have found is to use constant change of distance
and constant blade motion to deny the opponent a chance to beat.

The moment they see you with the French grip in your hand and they can catch the weapon arm static for a second, they go for a beat.

[lochinvar]

Originally Posted by striker

The moment they see you with the French grip in your hand and they can catch the weapon arm static for a second, they go for a beat.

I've surprised not a few opponents that thought that a beat would disarm me (I fence French). They beat, expecting the weapon to fly, and Lo! it stays firmly in my hand.

Then they beat a second time, thinking it was just a fluke. I derobe and attack. They usually stop the beats after that.

I don't really know why I'm seldom disarmed; I guess I just have a strong hand.

BTW, I've tried just about every ortho on the market and always had a problem with cramping. The Russian was about the closest I came to one that fit my ham hands, and even that was still problematic. I switched back to French, and the cramping went away.

I'm a Frenchie from now on.

[Mr Epee]

Hold on!

I've fenced quite a few top french grippers, and you absolutely DO NOT want to be trying to beat it out of their hand. This causes you to think in a way that is not very efficient, and the ability to take out frogs is all about efficiency, and taking slight advantage of your strength bonus. (Preferably in a way that gently pushes them out of the way.)

Any decent french gripper will just adjust their distance, and recover very quickly.

[veeco]

So in effect, you are saying that fencing against a French grip user forces you to fence better? :-)

[Mr Epee]

Fencing against a french grip forces you to fence BETTER!

If an epeeist is ever to master their sport they MUST be able to understand the french grip game. Absolutely essential, because it is epee fencing in one of it's purist forms.

(You don't have to fence with one, but you do have to understand them... and never never never ever underestimate them)

[veeco]

Those French grips... Quite powerful stuff ;-)

[Victor]

Originally Posted by lochinvar

I've surprised not a few opponents that thought that a beat would disarm me (I fence French). They beat, expecting the weapon to fly, and Lo! it stays firmly in my hand.

Then they beat a second time, thinking it was just a fluke. I derobe and attack. They usually stop the beats after that.

Then you've been trained well. A "soft" hand is one of the niftiest tools in an EPEEist's arsenal -- the seemingly paradoxical ability to let the point pop back on wrist/forearm target without any conscious effort. It's even more apparent when a good fencer is using a french grip (with distance!).

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by Tomas N

Your ability to anticipate beats must be quite remarkable glowstix. I've found that a properly executed beat impossible to derobe. What's your technique?

Tomas

few things here:
1. sure, against a top fencer whose technique is great, its hard to anticipate but for the general fencer, i can more or less anticipate when they will beat for some reason.
2. even if you don't anticipate, most fencers wind up just a little bit before they beat so you can tell which direction the beat will come from.
3. for some reason, when you use a french grip, people seem to think they can beat it out of your hand so you pretty much know its coming and for some other reason they feel the need to try to beat harder and thus use a bigger wind up so its even easier.
4. you can bait someone into beating by holding the blade out there and when they wind up to take the beat, derobe and hit; one of my favorite strategies against people that like to do large beats..

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by veeco

Those French grips... Quite powerful stuff ;-)

very much so. right now i'd like to explore the possibility of using it but i'm just too broke right now since i'd have to buy new blades AND grips..

i'm not a strong blade taker but i do use opposition and some attacks on the blade. having said that, i'm not sure that the french will be suitable for my style. what is so appealing about the french is the pommeling where you can extend the forefinger down the grip to give the sensation that you can "point" to where you want the tip to go and it often is that way...very interesting stuff.

the only shortcoming of the french is that when you pommel you do show quite a bit of hand under the guard which makes for good target. i've hit that area a few times.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by glowstix

the only shortcoming of the french is that when you pommel you do show quite a bit of hand under the guard which makes for good target. i've hit that area a few times.

I think that this is a huge misconception

When I'm fencing, I'm constantly working to the body/shoulder with a variety of preparations, mostly coupe actions to the hand. In fact I hit so frequently with the preparatory coupe to the hand, that most people think that it is my primary action... its not.

BUT, when I fence against a french gripper, I immediately throw the coupes to the hand straight out the window. A french gripper's greatest advantage is when working to shallow targets, so why would I engage him in an area of the game where he has a the advantage.

Of course this assumes that the french gripper is competent, and has been taught how to fence

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

I think that this is a huge misconception

When I'm fencing, I'm constantly working to the body/shoulder with a variety of preparations, mostly coupe actions to the hand. In fact I hit so frequently with the preparatory coupe to the hand, that most people think that it is my primary action... its not.

BUT, when I fence against a french gripper, I immediately throw the coupes to the hand straight out the window. A french gripper's greatest advantage is when working to shallow targets, so why would I engage him in an area of the game where he has a the advantage.

Of course this assumes that the french gripper is competent, and has been taught how to fence

how do you coupe in Epee?? (not to change the subject too much)

not sure i understand the "misconception". i see target showing under the guard, i aim, i hit...some of the time at least. you need to explain the "misconception" a bit more. i know you're way more competent than me when it comes to Epee.

[remise]

I have a question for those who "post" with the French Grip. Every time I try to post I get hit on the hand. I like the idea of posting, but how do I do it correctly without getting a painful hit on my hand, which is somehow exposed when I post?