no pretty colors!!!

[BillWhoArms]

I recently got a weapon rewired by a supposed armorer at a tournament. Yet after I got back ( I unfortuneately didn't get to test it at the tournament) to practice at my club I noticed that the foil would not produce any lights. Colored or white.

I've dealt with the consistent white light many times, but I have yet to not have any lights come on. When i hit my opponent on the lame (and yes, i know i hit correctly) nothing registers. I can't even get white lights by hitting the tip to the ground.

I have a german V2a tip. The problem is not the box nor the body cord, because i changed both those variables just to make sure.

Does anyone know the diagnosis for this problem and can perhaps give me a little help??

[telkanuru]

This means that the B and C lines in your blade are shorted togeather. Possibly, the wire is grounding to your blade somewhere, most likely in the guard or the tip. If you have a 2-prong socket, make sure the socket that connects to the wire is properly insulated.

Basically, a foil works by having a complete circuit that is broken when the point is depressed. If it is depressed and the point *only* (therefore, taping the blade) is in contact with your opponent's A-line (lame), you get a coloured light. Otherwise, you get a white light.

[mrbiggs]

Did you check the socket? I'm not sure about on-target lights, but a lack of off-target lights means that the wire is grounding to the blade. This could happen because of a lack of insulation somewhere on the wire, or maybe because the wire is touching both sockets.

This is just a guess, someone who knows what they're talking about can tell you more.

[Purple Fencer]

There's a ground in the weapon somewhere....meaning that the circuit is intact and will not break.

Check under the pad...he may have crushed the wire under the nose of the grip, or even forgotton to thread the wire through the socket bracket...

There could also be a ground up in the tip if the wire was stripped when pulling it through the tip.

If you don;t trust this guy, feel free to send it to me...but if you decide to do so, don;t do anything to it like pull the wire...I'd want to see what the other guy did.

[DHCJr]

Here is some specific things to try. What Sam says is something that happens a lot. Using a test box.

1) Remove the handle and pad to make it easier to see. Does the wire go through the hole for the tang in the connector? Has the Spaghetti been crushed and does it go ALL the way from the base of the tang to the connector with no breaks? If all of this looks good put it back together making sure you do not crush the wire, then we go on to the tip.

2) Remove the tip and spring. Does the light go out? If not use your jewelers screwdrive to try moving the contact. Does the light go out? Check the wire of the blade. Does there appear a bare uninsullated part.

The last 2 ideas may mean a rewire. Do you know the type of glue? If it was an Elmer's type white glue and French wires, you may have a problem. This type of glue retains water and allows conductivity. The last idea must be done very carefully. They may have crushed the wire at the tip. If it has a groove use a 5mm wrench to SLIGHTLY loosen the barrel. Does the light go out?

I hope some of this helps.

[BillWhoArms]

Where exactly does the circuit get broken in a German V2a foil tip? Is it between the sliding metal jacket thing and the screws? between the tip and the barrel???

Oh, and thanks for all the other help, guys... none of it has worked yet, though

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by BillWhoArms

Where exactly does the circuit get broken in a German V2a foil tip? Is it between the sliding metal jacket thing and the screws? between the tip and the barrel???

Oh, and thanks for all the other help, guys... none of it has worked yet, though

When working properly, and in the rest position (meaning the tip's not being pushed down), the end of the wire (in the cup) is in contact with the bottom end of the spring. The top of the spring is in contact with the little flange that's screwed onto the bottom end of the tip (regardless of tip design). The top of that flange is being pushed by the spring against the collar where the screws go (any design). Power will go up the B line of the body cord (the one with the smaller pin at the end), into the socket (the port with the insulators...and that the wire is connected to) up the wire, into the spring, into the base of the tip, into the collar, into the screws, doen the blade back to the socket bracket, and to the C line (the big pin) and out...

Thus, if working properly, pwer is always flowing....this is called a "normallyu closed" circuit, because it's normal condition is for the circuit to allow power flow.

The scoring box is looking for any break in the that circuit...ideally it's the tip being depressed. because the collar is held stationary by the screws, contact between the power and the blade (i.e. between the B and C lines) is broken.

If the tip is depressed by hitting the other guy's bell guard or a grounded strip, nothing happens, because power goes directly to ground, bypassing the scoring circuit in the box (does not pass Go, doesn't collect $200, doesn;t trigger a light...as far as the box is concerned, it's just like you're standing on guard.

If the tip is depressed by hitting an ungrounded surface like a gym floor or an off target area, power can't go anywhere...it would go into the tip, but after that, nada. White light. (remember this....it comes back later)

If the tip is depresses against valid target, power goes into the tip, into the other guy's lame, and out the A line of HIS body cord, triggering the appropriate scoring light. (thus....the A line is NOT your friend in foil!)

Now here's the important thing to remember...the box doesn't care or know WHERE the break in the circuit is. It could be a depressed tip....it could be a loose connection somewhere like the barrel or grip.

The only part of a foil not directly part of the circuit in some fashion is pretty much the pad. The grip is an indirect part because it's job (aside fromgiving you something to hold on to) is to keep the socket tight against the guard and complete the circuit.

The only differance between a German V2a tip and any other foil tip are the materials used...even in the screwless tips, the circuit path is the same...as is the operation of the tip.

[BillWhoArms]

Well, I took the whole damn weapon apart after being frustrated enough. I inspected all parts of the wire and found no exposed copper. However; upon closer inspection, I noticed that the barrel on the rewired (by the tournament armourer) blade was different than all my other German V2a points; yet the tip looked to be the same. I'm figuring he switched barrels on me and that's what caused the short in the wire.

[smeric28]

switched barrels or not, that buy itself will not cause a short. did you hook up the weapon to a tester. what did the tester show? there are plenty of posts and guides on the internet read one about how a foil works. then post the test results. if all else fails find a multimeter and put one lead on the body of the blade then one on the wire. you can do this with the thing completely disassembeled and with the point out. basically you should be working with only the wired blade. if it's still shorted it needs rewired there's really no way to tell exactly where it's shorted if you can't easily see where by looking. you'll be able to tell once you pull the old wire out. btw did you ask him to fix the probem or does he not even know he gave you a bumb repair

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by BillWhoArms

Well, I took the whole damn weapon apart after being frustrated enough. I inspected all parts of the wire and found no exposed copper. However; upon closer inspection, I noticed that the barrel on the rewired (by the tournament armourer) blade was different than all my other German V2a points; yet the tip looked to be the same. I'm figuring he switched barrels on me and that's what caused the short in the wire.

Not. The barrel itself will not cause a short. Was the wire crushed anywhere...was there exposed wire on the socket (like a little tail touching the bracket)?

Give as much detail as you can....you would be amazed at what tips an experienced armorer off to the correct problem.

[BillWhoArms]

No, the guy doesn't know he did a bumb repair. He's long gone by now. The reason I suspect the barrel is wrong is because the tip hardly fits in there. And once it is in there, it will not push all the way down. Seems like a pretty useless foil now...

And I did test the weapon with a multimeter. It was definitely a short. I'd put one tip on the contact at the end of the wire in the point and the other on the bell guard and i'd get a current.

Purple, I checked the wire everywhere, and there was no exposed wire (that I could see) and the wire was definitely not touching the casing on the socket or the bell guard. I've wired foils before and I could not tell anything blatently wrong with this one. My best assumption is that the wire may have been a little stripped at the wire contact and it made a contact with the blade...

[telkanuru]

Wait, do you use 2-prong or bayonette? If 2-prong, is there still insulation on one of the screws? If bayonette, has a wire been soldered between the two connections? This is done for sabre; you may have had your socket switched.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by BillWhoArms

No, the guy doesn't know he did a bumb repair. He's long gone by now. The reason I suspect the barrel is wrong is because the tip hardly fits in there. And once it is in there, it will not push all the way down. Seems like a pretty useless foil now...

Ahhh....any dents in the barrel? it doesn't take a very large one to jam the tip.

If not...best to just drop back and punt for a rewire. There somes a time when it's just not worth the effort of defining the problem.

[smeric28]

don't test from the contact in the barrel. test from the loose wire to the blade. it's way to easy to accidently touch the side of the barrel when testing they way you did. many things could cause the barrel to be jammed

[Almightynoitall]

had the same problem once... my friend had borrowed a blade and taken it apart... unfortunately, he was a sabre fencer, and put a two prong socket from one of his sabres on accidentally (there was no plastic part to insulate between the socket and frame)... I've also had to help sabre fencers who did the same job in reverse (putting an insulated two-prong socket onto a sabre, rendering it useless)

[BillWhoArms]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

Ahhh....any dents in the barrel? it doesn't take a very large one to jam the tip.

If not...best to just drop back and punt for a rewire. There somes a time when it's just not worth the effort of defining the problem.

You win the prize, Purple. I recently forced the point in and put the screws in as far as they would go, which was apparently not far enough. After putting the point together I noticed the travel distance on the point was extremely small, so i figured since it's foil and there's no requirement for travel distance (at least I don't think there is) I'd fence with it. Well guess what happened next? I fenced 2 bouts and in the second the tip shot right out of the barrel. But now the tip fits in the barrel perfectly. I guess I had enough strong hits that I made the tip my own barrel reemer.

I just figured I'd give some closure to this thread.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by BillWhoArms

After putting the point together I noticed the travel distance on the point was extremely small, so i figured since it's foil and there's no requirement for travel distance (at least I don't think there is).

Actually there is a travel distance requirement (M.11.4), but it is a maximum (1mm), not a minimum and it is not usually tested. Just an observation.