Really cheap Vendors

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!


I am searching for vendors which are in the low part of the price range, for club and especially "try-out" use. These items are especially important:
1. Beginner sets (beginner jacket, glove, steam weapon, maybe some other item)
2. Gloves
3. Epee bodywires

I have looked at the PBT (Hungary) and Esun (Hong Kong). Previously, there was a US. company that sold extensively via Ebay, but I did not find them when I searched Ebay today. Where have they gone? I have looked for the Ukranian website of Vniti, to no avail.

Which companies have I overlooked? Any recommended websites? Consider that I have to factor in postage to Sweden.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[The Armourer]

Ah what you need is a Zilverzmurfen!!!! Hang on she will be past soon, very helpful and bound to give you some good advice.

[Robert Smith]

On the recommendation of one of our Provincial armourers, who tells me he's had input to their designs and sizing, I have some stuff on order from Celestial Sports in Pakistan. I don't have a price list handy, but their jackets, I'm told, are great quality for the money (around $20 US). Their gloves range from $3 to $5. They sell bags, which I suspect are identical to the ones sold locally for considerably more; wheely bags for around $50 or $60 US. Plastrons for peanuts. I don't know what their minimum order size is, but my order came to around $600 US, including 8 jackets, 2 plastrons, two pairs breeches, 6 assorted bags and 30 gloves. Web site is at http://www.celsports.com/. As I understand it, those prices include the cost of air freight to your local international airport too, although I won't know for sure until it arrives, which it ought to do in about a week's time. I'll let you know how it turns out.

[CvilleFencer]

For decent low cost vendors in the US for clubs both Amanda at Absolute and Blue Guantlet offer some very attractive pricing along with fast shipping and decent quality equipment. If you go bare bones for a starter set consisting of mask/jacket/sword/glove you can get someone kitted for around $90 dollars before shipping. This is bare bones stuff mind you but decent quality. Most of the ebay vendors are selling crap and you will most likely be sorry, or that has been my experiance.

You can get cheaper prices going through Chinese/overseas vendors but the shipping times and the fact that you have to use bank transfers and have no real recourse if you get screwed make it a less attractive option. The last option is to buy in bulk from various suppliers but the quantity you have to buy is prohibitive for most clubs. If you want to check out that route look at the following:

Epee Co: Great prices and where a lot of vendors get some of their kit from. Good prices on everything, shipping is a pain, payments are bank draft only, expect 1-2 months for normal delivery: http://www.ggg.com.hk/sports.html

Esun: Not as good a deal as Epee co but still very cheap. Shipping is a bit quicker but more expensive, some gear less durable, same hastles with payments: http://www.esun.com.hk/

Dynamo/StM/Fleche: Blades are in 100 peice lots, very difficult to establish a relationship with if you are not slavic, or at least that has been my experiance. Great prices, slowish shipping and same bank draft only problems as Chinese vendors unless you work out an account: http://www.dinamo-blade.lg.ua/

Khalid Gloves: Great place to get cheap but durable fencing gloves. Physical Chess and Blade sell their $4 dollar gloves for 20-30 a pop. IIRC 150 peice minimum but you can mix and match styles/sizes. Can also put you in touch with folks who can make kit. Shipping is quicker than most Chinese vendors but you still have to do the bank draft stuff: http://www.khalidgloves.com/

PBT: This is the Hungarian site. About 20-60% cheaper than the US site for top quality kit, fast shipping and they take credit cards. The only catch is that they will not sell in the US directly so you have to use a re-mailing service from a country that does not have the same kind of deal. Relatives in Canada help out quite a bit! http://www.pbtfencing.com/

I could give you a few other sources but you did say cheap... Keep in mind that unless you are prepared to wait and deal with about 5-10% of you order being of poor quality the Chinese vendors are problamatic and if they decide to tell you to blow off you don't have a lot of recourse. Still, I have never heard of any real problems and all my transactions with them have been mostly smooth. Our club goes through 18-30K a year in kit for our fencers and all our club and school programs but for me it is easier to work with Amanda at Absolute than to save a fair amount but have to stock gear so I don't do much with the bulk vendors these days. It would save (a lot of) money in the longrun, but I would have to rent a place to store it and the upfront capital to invest in an incremental return throughout the year. It is also a pain in the *** when things go wrong.

Anyway, hope all that helps. If you would like direct contacts or more info let me know.

[CvilleFencer]

On the recommendation of one of our Provincial armourers, who tells me he's had input to their designs and sizing, I have some stuff on order from Celestial Sports in Pakistan. I don't have a price list handy, but their jackets, I'm told, are great quality for the money (around $20 US). Their gloves range from $3 to $5. They sell bags, which I suspect are identical to the ones sold locally for considerably more; wheely bags for around $50 or $60 US. Plastrons for peanuts. I don't know what their minimum order size is, but my order came to around $600 US, including 8 jackets, 2 plastrons, two pairs breeches, 6 assorted bags and 30 gloves. Web site is at http://www.celsports.com/. As I understand it, those prices include the cost of air freight to your local international airport too, although I won't know for sure until it arrives, which it ought to do in about a week's time. I'll let you know how it turns out.

I am interested in this compnay but I looked around on the website and saw only the gloves and bags. More details on the actual kit/clothing parts would be greatly appreciated! Also more details on the ordering experiance and how you paid would be great.

Thanks,
Cville

[Robert Smith]

Here's the price list they provided:

A
PC Jackets with rear zipper plastic catcher or velcro closing
bleached 35/65, proper padding. US$.17.85
Underarm protector bleached PC 35/65 with plastic
catcher/velcro closing. US$.11.55
Knicker/Breeches thick PC 35/65 plastic catchers US$.18.40
B
Heavy styles Polyster 2/3 layers jacket Front zipper US$.19.95
underarm protector US$.12.15
Knicker/Breeches US$.22.00
C
Gloves: Real leather different styles US$.3.25 to US$.4.00 each left or right hand.
Synthetic chamois all stylesUS$.3.00 to US$.3.75 each left or right
Synthetic chamois current styles with grippy or silicone.US$.3.50 to 4.25 each
Synthetic chamois with Neoprene Gel styles: 3.75 to $.4.50 each
D
Bags: Custom styles made of strong imported parachute fabric complete with pockets, strong YKK plastic zippers No.10 and shoulder belts etc.
1.Cone style for youth US$.10.75 each
2.Guitar style double compartment 2 outer pockets, catchers and belts etc.$.18.50
3.Book style attractive in the first look enough room for all requirements $.18.50
4.Double compartment bigger bag with 2 outside pockets. $.29.00
5.Roller/wheely bag 2 outside pockets $.50.00
Prices based on C & F each an international airport in Canada in US currency.

It's been a little slow. I wired the funds to them March 8, it took around a week for the money to reach them (electronic funds transfer?!?), and they've had bad weather recently which has delayed shipping. The shipment should be en route within the next couple of days, and they say it should take 5 to 7 days to arrive at the local airport. This being Vancouver Island, I expect 7 to 9 days, so it will probably take 15. But this is our first beginner group, and next time, I'll know to order well in advance.

Talking to Saul at the FP, he recommended against going to Pakistan, but I think mostly because of the tariffs; he gets his generic gear from Mexico. But I'm reliably informed (I hope) that duties up here aren't that steep; again, I'll have to wait and see. Once I know, I'll follow up here.

[Zilverzmurfen]

Ah what you need is a Zilverzmurfen!!!! Hang on she will be past soon, very helpful and bound to give you some good advice.

Ooops, I think you might be having a little high thoughts of me, C!


Peter, all I can think of really is StM gear through Sergei. I assume you'll be having it for club-use for beginners/möhippor/svensexor och sånt? Vi har en StM-jackor för utlåning, visserligen bara 350 N men...

Have a chat with Sergei at Nationals on saturday. I have no idea what he'll be charging, but atleast 'shipping' from abroad would be included. As said, decent for a beginner for starters.

[KD5MDK]

Wheelie bags for $50? That's really attractive. It would probably be easier to deal with Mexico from Texas I suppose. Who are the manufacturers down there?

[Robert Smith]

Dynamo/StM/Fleche: Blades are in 100 peice lots, very difficult to establish a relationship with if you are not slavic, or at least that has been my experiance. Great prices, slowish shipping and same bank draft only problems as Chinese vendors unless you work out an account: http://www.dinamo-blade.lg.ua/

Looking at their web page, they show three foil blades, the third of which is dry. But the first two, one wired one not, are both listed at 8 euros. Given that you can't get even the tip retail for 8 euros, that's one low price. Does anyone know any more abou these blades? Are these the same blades retailed as StM / Dinamo blades? And, given the same price for wired and unwired, is there a difference in the blades themselves? If they can be ordered in quantities as low as 100, we could split the cost among club members and be independant of the postal system for quite some time. Plus save a buck or two over retail, of course. Anyone know more?

[Robert Smith]

Don't answer that last, I mailed them and asked. This is what I got back:

Dear Mr. Smith
On your request we would like to inform you that Joint Stock Company "Metalware Plant DYNAMO" has been selling its production on the fencing market for 55 years. During this period our company has acquired the worthy respect of the fencers of the entire world. Nowadays we are producing blades made of carbon steel (these blades are usually called "black blades"), namely:
Epee electric blade without point 8 EUR
Epee blade without point 6 EUR
Foil electric blade without point 8 EUR
Foil blade without point 6 EUR
V-sabre blade 8 EUR
Epee electric blade FIE N 20 EUR
Foil guard made of aluminum 3 EUR
Epee guard made of aluminum 4 EUR
V-sabre guard made of aluminum 5 EUR
On the buyer's request we are producing five sizes of fencing blades in accordance with the demands of the national fencing federations. These sizes differ in lengths from 750 mm up to 900 mm. In every order the buyer indicates what lengths of the blades he wants to get. We are producing blades either for French grip or for the pistol grip. The terms of our works are the following: we make the contract, sign the application to the contract in which the assortment is indicated, and than in 30 days after the moment of prepayment, we are making the delivery of the goods to you.
If your order is more then 1000 blades, you are receiving the 10% discount and we are paying 50% of the air tariff. Also on buyer's request we can stamp the logo of the buyer on the blade. You may make the order of any volume, but the less you buy the higher will be the delivery price because of the high prices of the transport companies.

Hope for mutually beneficial collaboration.
With respect,
Chairman Boards Yuriy Berezovsky

So, what ARE "black blades"?

[CvilleFencer]

I wonder why they told me a 100? Bastards. Blade blades are just carbon steel blades. If unsanded and ill treated they will "blacken" with age and a little oil. Using them for cooking or skinning makes the process go much quicker. They were rather popular a while back. Like in wild west to early 1900's type of while back for cooking, camping, pocket knives etc before everyone went to more modern/exotic steels like AUS 8, S30V, 154Cm, ATS 34 etc.

[Robert Smith]

I suspect you'd still want to order at least 100, just to make it worthwhile on shipping. The bit that says "Also on buyer's request we can stamp the logo of the buyer on the blade" is kind of interesting; I doubt they'd do it on small batches, but club insignia'ed blades might have a certain cachet...

So, these "black" blades are simply carbon steel. Where does that fit them in the hierarchy of retail-available blades? I've been using both StM maraging and cheapo blades of late; are these similar in terms of durability, weight, flexibility etc to the cheapos? I guess what I'm asking is, when you say "everyone went to more modern/exotic steels", was there a good reason for that which would make these blades less desirable than a modern/exotic steel blade?

[Zilverzmurfen]

Also on buyer's request we can stamp the logo of the buyer on the blade.

That explains why that US vendor (name slips me at the moment) calls them "Flêche" blades.

[CvilleFencer]

So, these "black" blades are simply carbon steel. Where does that fit them in the hierarchy of retail-available blades? I've been using both StM maraging and cheapo blades of late; are these similar in terms of durability, weight, flexibility etc to the cheapos? I guess what I'm asking is, when you say "everyone went to more modern/exotic steels", was there a good reason for that which would make these blades less desirable than a modern/exotic steel blade?

Sorry, I tend to assume that everyone spends their spare time collecting/forging/studying weapons when they are not practicing the use of them...

There is nothing whatsoever wrong with carbon steel. Adjusting the carbon and other elements in the forging process is what gives you different characteristics of the steel such as hardness, edge retention, ect. Carbon steel differs from stainless steel in that (again being really simple so all you engineers back off) carbon steel does not have a substantial amount of nickel, chromium, vanadium or some other rust resistant metal in it. Buy adding these type of metals the steel tends to generally become more brittle/less flexible and heavier, but that is by no means a universal truth. All depends on how much of what is added and how it is forged/tempered.

Almost all historical swords from the middle ages forward were made of carbon steel. The traits of the carbon steel allowed them to flexible enough not to snap in battle but still have rigidity for the cut/thrust and good edge holding characteristics. Carbon Steel was the preferred general purpose blade steel right up until about the 1930-40's when blades generally got much smaller and stainless steel became more available/less expensive.

Now that the history is done, back to the topic at hand. Pretty much all non-FIE blades are carbon steel blades. Their is nothing cheap or inferior about the metal itself. It actually gives you the traits you want in a fencing or battle sword, IE the ability to hold its shape well, to take extreme flex/bends and return true and to be easy to forge and very low cost. So there is nothing wrong with Carbon Steel blades. StM, BF, WKC, FL, FS, PS etc are all Carbon Steel blades.

Maraging steel blades have an added alloy and are forged and tested to higher tolerances. Maraging steel blades are NOT stainless, they will rust (for that matter so will certain types of "stainless steel" just not easily) but they are more resistant to rusting/tarnishing because of the added alloy.

So they blades that Dynamo refers to as "black blades" are just non-FIE blades and they are the same as the ones stamped Dynamo/Fleche/StM. You should not have any problems with them in that respect. Hope all that helped!

[KD5MDK]

I wonder what shippping would cost. It's kind of tempting to get some friends and figure if we each order 10 blades, it's the same as buying 3 in the states. Hmm.

[ignatius2]

I've been trying to contact with Celestial Sports but none of the emails that appear in their main page works. Do you know any mail that I can use to contact with them? thanks.

[Robert Smith]

I've been talking to a guy by the name of Riaz via path1@skt.comsats.net.pk. He's been quite responsive, but the process has been sloooow. He tells me they usually get stuff on its way within 20 days of ordering, but that the weather's been bad there and, including time in transit, it will have taken about 40 days. It's supposed to get here next Monday (the wonders of air freight tracking systems!), so I'll let you know what the stuff's like soon after.

[Robert Smith]

Out by a day; it arrived Tuesday. I'd forgotten the inevitable delay in customs.

Okay, here's the contents of the package:
10 jackets (single layer, heavy polyester)
3 pairs breeches, cotton and polyester
2 plastrons
34 gloves, the usual imitation chamois type
1 cone bag
7 two-compartment bags
1 wheely bag

Base price, $630 US.
Add on taxes (this is Canada) -
-- Provincial sales tax - 7%
-- Goods and services tax - 7%
-- Duty, as sports equipment, not clothing - 6.5%
-- Handling charge to Air Canada - $42.

So, in total, around 30% over the base price.

The bags look just as good as retail, but ranged in price from $62 for the wheely down to $18 for the cone.
The gloves look just as good as retail, but I think maybe just a little smaller than expected, maybe half a size. They were $3. Yes, that's three.
Plastrons look just fine, I think $12 each.
Breeches, haven't looked too closely, but they look okay for non-FIE
Jackets, round about $20. I guess we wait and see how they are in use. I was surprised that they were only single-ply fabric, but it's sturdy stuff. They included a sample of their cheaper cotton jackets, which were two-ply and seemed to be better padded. We'll make plastrons if it turns out the jackets aren't adequate on their own.

All in all, I'm pretty impressed. Communications have been good throughout, and once shipped everything was timely. It's taken over six weeks between wiring the funds and getting the goods, and we'll have to take that into account next time. If you're somewhere other than Canada, then the applicable import duties will doubtless be diffferent, but for us at least this was a very cost-effective way of equipping a beginner group and filling some club needs too.

Anyone wants more details - photos, whatever - ask and ye shall receive.

[smeric28]

who was this order from?

[Robert Smith]

who was this order from?

Sports Celestial in Pakistan. Web site at http://www.celsports.com/. They show bags and gloves on the web site, but they do all those other things too. They came recommended to me by a Provincial armourer, so I thought I'd give them a try.

They also included in the bundle a guard of a type I've never come across before. Does anyone recognize this? Stainless steel, it consists of a tube of maybe 3" in length, round outside, square socket running through, just the right size for a foil tang. Across the top of the tube is a crossbar, somewhere around 7" or 8" long, circular in section and under 1/2" in diameter, with slight constrictions towards the ends. On top of this, in a similar sectional dimension steel, a "C" shape large enough to fit a hand (not mine, comfortably, at least), canted a little so that the "C" is resting on its heel. I'd include a picture, but don't have a camera handy. I'd point to a web image, but so far no luck in finding, sorry.