04-04-2005, 04:33 PM
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#1 | | Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,021
| "Real" weapons?
Are sport fencing foils/epees/sabres "real" weapons?
Please. Amuse me. The perennial flick firestorms and posturings on various tactics almost always prompt someone to opine that employing our weapons This Way or That Way would never work with a Real Weapon. I'd like to see someone dissect what a "real" weapon really is and what the heck it has anything to do with our sport. | 
|  | | And now for this message... |
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04-04-2005, 05:12 PM
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#2 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 364
| 1. An instrument of attack or defense in combat, as a gun, missile, or sword.
2. A means used to defend against or defeat another: Logic was her weapon.
3. any instrument or instrumentality used in fighting or hunting
In the first definition I guess one would then have to define combat and determine whether it was applicable to the sport of fencing... I'm guess not though. In which case fencing weapons are not weapons.
In the second case there is a clear argument that fencing weapons are weapons since they are used to defend against and defeat our opponents.
And in the third, it depends on whether fencing constitutes "fighting" or not. If it does, then our weapons are real weapons. Otherwise, they are not.
Those definitions are from dictionary.com.
In my opinion they are not "real" weapons. I think of a weapon as something that I could effectively use to inflict injury and death upon others. The issue of defense is moot to me since it all depends on what you are defending against. A rapier would be useless against a axe, bow, or firearm, but could be used to harm anyone regardless of what they are holding. So the closest thing to a "real" weapon that fencing has are epees that break off near the tip and leave a sharp point (or are specifically sharpened). Without modification, fencing weapons are no more dangerous than tennis racquets.
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04-04-2005, 05:32 PM
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#3 | | Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 31
| All I know is that a mordern fencing weapon, is not a sword...
Please don't call it a sword... | |
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04-04-2005, 05:48 PM
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#4 | | Registered User
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| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Rodeo79 All I know is that a mordern fencing weapon, is not a sword...
Please don't call it a sword... | Well, if Rodeo79 knows it's not a sword, that's good enough for me! End of discussion. | |
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04-04-2005, 05:51 PM
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#5 | | Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 31
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Originally Posted by Victor Well, if Rodeo79 knows it's not a sword, that's good enough for me! End of discussion. | As it should be. | |
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04-04-2005, 05:53 PM
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#6 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: greece
Posts: 3,362
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Rodeo79 All I know is that a mordern fencing weapon, is not a sword...
Please don't call it a sword... | Somehow, I get the feeling you don't know what epee means...
Or that in spanish, epee is called espada, and that you probably don't know what that means either... 
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04-04-2005, 05:57 PM
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#7 | | Fencing Expert
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| I was at the airport in SFO going to Denver, with two other fencers from my club. While waiting to check-in, I casually asked how many weapons he brought with them. One answered three, the other said I shouldn't have said "weapons" at the airport. The woman standing next to us did a double-take and her mind probably went "bing-bing-bing-bing!"
I explained that it was fencing and decided to call them sporting equipment. So no, fencing blades are not weapons anymore. At least not within 1000 feet of any airport.
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04-04-2005, 06:07 PM
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#8 | | Senior Member
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| Quote: |
Originally Posted by achilleus Somehow, I get the feeling you don't know what epee means...
Or that in spanish, epee is called espada, and that you probably don't know what that means either... | With the combination of the above two threads, it just occured to me that you probably shouldn't say "epee" in a French airport.
Not that I'm going to come across that any time soon, but something to think about. | |
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04-04-2005, 06:15 PM
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#9 | | Fencing Expert
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| In addition, you take a look at the dictionary definition of foil, epee, and sabre, and the word sword appears in every one.
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We're no threat, people, we're not dirty, we're not mean
We love everybody but we do as we please
When the weather's fine,
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04-04-2005, 06:16 PM
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#10 | | Member
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| Quote: |
Originally Posted by achilleus Somehow, I get the feeling you don't know what epee means...
Or that in spanish, epee is called espada, and that you probably don't know what that means either... |
Wow you want to argue semantics on a thread based on semantics, how cute... | |
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04-04-2005, 06:17 PM
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#11 | | Member
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Originally Posted by achilleus In addition, you take a look at the dictionary definition of foil, epee, and sabre, and the word sword appears in every one. | And the definition of sword includes a cutting edge... funny huh... | |
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04-04-2005, 06:18 PM
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#12 | | Fencing Expert
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Originally Posted by Rodeo79 Wow you want to argue semantics on a thread based on semantics, how cute... | You can just say, 'No, I don't know what epee means.'
Really. It's OK.
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We're no threat, people, we're not dirty, we're not mean
We love everybody but we do as we please
When the weather's fine,
We go fishin' or go swimmin' in the sea
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Life's for livin', yeah, that's our philosophy
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04-04-2005, 06:23 PM
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#13 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: MA
Posts: 7,411
| I guess the French definition doesn't include a cutting edge.
(BTW, it can be a "real" weapon and not a sword, and a "sword" and not a real weapon.) | |
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04-04-2005, 06:23 PM
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#14 | | Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 31
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by achilleus You can just say, 'No, I don't know what epee means.'
Really. It's OK. | Ah such wit, it's as sharp as the swords you fence with... | |
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04-04-2005, 06:27 PM
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#15 | | Fencing Expert
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Originally Posted by mrbiggs I guess the French definition doesn't include a cutting edge.
(BTW, it can be a "real" weapon and not a sword, and a "sword" and not a real weapon.) | Even more interesting is that in the US, it's not uncommon for fencers (myself included) to not refer to our weapons as swords. We use weapons, blades, sporting equipment (at airports and to the police), or the specific name. Yet in the 4 languages (french, german, italian, and spanish) I can think of that use their own name for epee, not including that epee was called duelling sword in the US long ago, the word is literally sword.
Must be a cultural thing.
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We're no threat, people, we're not dirty, we're not mean
We love everybody but we do as we please
When the weather's fine,
We go fishin' or go swimmin' in the sea
We're always happy
Life's for livin', yeah, that's our philosophy
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04-04-2005, 06:28 PM
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#16 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: South Carolina über Alles
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Originally Posted by Rodeo79 Ah such wit, it's as sharp as the swords you fence with... | Wow, Achilleus must fence with some pretty sharp swords.
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04-04-2005, 06:30 PM
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#17 | | Member
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Originally Posted by RebelFencer Wow, Achilleus must fence with some pretty sharp swords. | obviously... | |
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04-04-2005, 06:33 PM
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#18 | | Fencing Expert
Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: greece
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| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Rodeo79 And the definition of sword includes a cutting edge... funny huh... |
From Merriam Webster: Quote:
Main Entry: sword
Pronunciation: 'sOrd, 'sord
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English sweord; akin to Old High German swert sword
1 : a weapon (as a cutlass or rapier) with a long blade for cutting or thrusting that is often used as a symbol of honor or authority
2 a : an agency or instrument of destruction or combat b : the use of force <the pen is mightier than the sword -- E. G. Bulwer-Lytton>
3 : coercive power
4 : something that resembles a sword
| Yeah, so funny I'm still laughing...
__________________
We're no threat, people, we're not dirty, we're not mean
We love everybody but we do as we please
When the weather's fine,
We go fishin' or go swimmin' in the sea
We're always happy
Life's for livin', yeah, that's our philosophy
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04-04-2005, 06:36 PM
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#19 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: South Carolina über Alles
Posts: 2,601
| I've got your back Achilleus.
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RebelFencer's Awesome Quote of the Week:
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04-04-2005, 06:48 PM
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#20 | | Just Joined
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 24
| Here in the UK, at least, people ask which *weapon* a person fences.
An epee has all the characteristics of a duelling sword, except it has a thread at the tip for the electric switch. In fact, my first steam epee had a point d'arret, in the form of a cap, over a point.
Even the modern fencing sabre is not radically different from the last form of the cavalry weapon - the Austrian1868 (IIRC) and the British 1908 patterns. As I recall, the heft of the 1908 isn't much different at all. The tip is turned over and the edge blunt but the rest is pretty much the same.
The modern foil doesn't differ too much from a court sword either.
Some are squeamish about relating fencing to the bloodletting for which it used to be a preparation - I recall the, "fencing, a modern sport", slogan that was around when I started fencing; Just when there was a craze for oriental martial arts! | |
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