"Real" weapons?

[sabreur]

Originally Posted by Teme

Must have been the first time ever a British Master mocked an Italian Master

Points, for referring to: http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/brief.html.

Originally Posted by Teme

Seriously though, Castle was much into renaissance fencing, while Radaelli was teaching contemporary cavalry soldiers to survive a duel or melee. I believe the 1908 pattern sabre is modelled after these 'new and improved' lighter and more efficient weapons -- as all military swords were at the time.

I'm not in any way claiming that our current saber is comparable to 'real' swords, but there is a clear decendancy.

Actually, the Radaellian system was developed for the sciabola da terreno, or duelling sabre, which was never intended for anything other than duels on foot.

I have a pair of late 19th C or early 20th C duelling sabres which are remarkably similar to modern fencing sabres in weight, width of blade, etc. Except of course that they have points, and the last twelve inches of the true edge and about six inches of the false edge are sharp.

These are unusually light though--typically a duelling sabre would have a blade about a centimeter wide and weighed something between 380-500 grams--or about twice what a modern fencing sabre weighs. I have one example of this kind of duelling sabre, as well as four 19th C fencing sabres of the Radaellian type.

Modern sabre fencing, as I've noted before, traces its lineage pretty directly to Radaelli-->Italo Santelli-->Hungarian sabre style from 1920 to 1960-->Russian sabre style from 1960 to present. Obviously things have changed, but a lot remains--if you don't believe me, come and take a lesson from my Hungarian master sometime.

MR

[Teme]

Thank you kindly for your appreciation, both sirs!

Actually, the Radaellian system was developed for the sciabola da terreno, or duelling sabre, which was never intended for anything other than duels on foot.

Yes. I was merely trying to point out the different attitude towards (then) 'modern' fencing of Castle (predominantly historian) and Radaelli (army fencing master).

I though the Hungarian school was a synthesis of the Radaellian system and the earlier Hungarian style copied from the Cossacks.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Teme

Hey, since we're hot on the topic, you having toyed with 1908 pattern sabers, how long do think it would take you to adjust to use it, technically and tactically?

It depends on what you mean by "adjust". To using it like a modern fencing sabre? Then the answer is probably "when I develop muscles like Conan". Or, to using it as it was meant to be used? In which case, probably not very long. Having read Patton's manual on the sabre as well as a couple of others I know the basic theory. It'd just be a matter of practice. ( Now, there's a 'duh' answer for you. ) And of course I'd have to obtain a horse...

For use on foot...to oversimplify vastly, I think it'd be rather like learning to use a rapier: you have only to accustom yourself to moving the guard instead of trying to fling the whole blade around like we do today, and you're nearly there.

[sabreur]

Originally Posted by Teme

I though the Hungarian school was a synthesis of the Radaellian system and the earlier Hungarian style copied from the Cossacks.

It would be wonderful if it were true, but no. The Hungarian system was actually an outgrowth of a Northern Italian school that emphasized manipulating the blade with the wrist and fingers, as opposed to the Radaellian school, which emphasized movements from the elbow--you hit harder, but you are way slower.

MR

[Epeecurean]

Originally Posted by Victor

Are sport fencing foils/epees/sabres "real" weapons?

Please. Amuse me. The perennial flick firestorms and posturings on various tactics almost always prompt someone to opine that employing our weapons This Way or That Way would never work with a Real Weapon. I'd like to see someone dissect what a "real" weapon really is and what the heck it has anything to do with our sport.

Regardless of whether or not foils/epees/sabres are "real" weapons, the sport of fencing is meant to replicate to SOME degree actual combat with swords. Obviously it will be an inexact or even loose re-creation, but it should bear SOME semblance to real combat with swords, especially in its basic actions, tactical dimensions and the spirit of the contest.

I don't have a problem with the flick per se, it can in some ways be viewed as a type of coupe. Indeed, in the early days of the flick in the 1980s we simply called them coupes.

In epee the flick has been integrated smoothly, without really altering the basic tactics, strategy and balance of the game. The lack of RoW in epee and the tight constraint of the 40-50ms lock-out prevent the flick from dominating the game. It is a factor, but just one of many.

However, in foil the flick, in combination with the marching attack and an exploitation of the grey areas of refereeing, has become very disruptive to the game, driving out tactical variety and resulting in a mono-game. I feel this new game is inferior to / less rich than pre-flick foil and is too radical departure from its historical roots in swordsmanship (ha! I said the s-word).

[Teme]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

For use on foot...to oversimplify vastly, I think it'd be rather like learning to use a rapier: you have only to accustom yourself to moving the guard instead of trying to fling the whole blade around like we do today, and you're nearly there.

I think that is what I was after with "adjust". That you don't have to start from scratch, but more or less "accustom" yourself. Say, like if somebody would change the rules of modern saber or something...

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by achilleus

Yet in the 4 languages (french, german, italian, and spanish) I can think of that use their own name for epee, not including that epee was called duelling sword in the US long ago, the word is literally sword.

Must be a cultural thing.

One more...

Hungarian -

Foil - Tör (Sword)

Epee - Parbajtör (Dueling Sword)

Sidenote: The Hungarian equipment maker PBT takes their name from the syllable leaders in ParBajTör

[grotto]

Originally Posted by Rodeo79

All I know is that a modern fencing weapon, is not a sword...
Please don't call it a sword...

Untrue, my Maestro had a very large collection of Swords. Which included 2 very real dueling epees. they were exactly like a normal epee with french grips except they ended in a needle sharp point, they were indeed real.

[Bingre]

Here in Portugal we usually refer to any of the "weapons" of modern fencing as "ferro" (literally "iron", like the french "fer"). The word "armas" ("weapons") is only used when asking whether we are refering to florete (foil), espada (literally "sword") or sabre, like "Qual arma preferes?" (Which weapon do you prefer?)

Our oldest books on fencing trace usually mention that the foil is derived from a training version of the "espadim" (literally, "small sword"), itself a descendent from the early renaissance's "estoque" - a thrusting weapon whose blade had a square cross-section, much like modern foil, although it was shorter.

I have seen many extensive armouries with authentic examples of each of these weapons and epochs, and I must say that many foils dating at least before the 1950's still looked quite like pointless "estoques" (pun intended). On the other hand, a contemporary foil, so extremely flexible and equiped with a pistol grip doesn't resemble any of its supposed ancestors - or so it seems to me...

When we look speciffically at the XIX century's and early XX century's dueling swords and sabres we understand much better the rationale of conventional weapons.

A light duelling sabre (very different from the military ones) was fought for petty reasons, where the offense was avenged by drawing some blood from the opponent - the first injury meant defeat, and a scar in the face was considered as a tremendous oprobrium - the sign of the looser. Killing was avoided; causing and injury was enough. The rules also said that no military would be allowed to fight sabre with a civilian.

The duelling sword was used only to avenge the most serious offenses, and was responsible for most of the lethal duels. In fact, it was used only when the oponents were willing to fight until one of them died.
Modern epées, especially the stiffest ones, are remarkably similar to these duelling swords, insofar as sharpening them might reproduce a functional duelling weapon. Of course "modern" counter-attacks where avoided - there's no point in hitting your opponent just 1/25th of a second before he hits you. You would either retreat, parry-riposte (a *real* parry, not just a light tap in the oponnent's blade) or else -if you were daring and skilled enough- make a prise-de-fers and thrust simultaneously. At least these are the descriptions I've read from contemporary documents, Portuguese and Spanish.

In a sense, the look and feel of modern epées is very similar to late XIX century's duelling swords, but the scoring system seems to me quite unrealistic. On the other hand, foil's right-of-way convention oblige the players to parry before riposting, a more life-saving technique than counterattacking; this makes foil rules more realistic than epee's, and much more so if the head became a legitimate target (IMHO). The foil rule that forbids touching the opponent's head was created before the fencing mask, and meant only to avoid training injuries; the bib would should be a valid target as well.

I can't imagine fencing as anything but a martial art. Not a self-defence technique, since it was born from a very peculiar and conventionalized fighting situation, which bears no resemblance to war, or street-fighting, or even Errol Flynn's skirmishes; but a martial art for a ritual confrontation. It makes no sense to comparing modern fencing "weapons" to anything else but *duelling* weapons, which were pretty useless in any other martial context. A rapier -accompanied, of course, by a left-hand dagger- would be definitely superior to a duelling sword in a street brawl.

Cheers,
Pedro Bingre do Amaral
(Coimbra, Portugal)

[Teme]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Foil - Tör (Sword)

Yes and no. It's tõr, with tilde, not umlauts

And it means 'dagger, knife, small-sword, to argue, annoying pointy stick'
The hungarian word for sword is kard, translated usually as 'saber'. Saber, I believe, is 'szablya' in Hungarian, meaning more the oriental version than the east European.

Or so I think.

Where's Nusy when you need one...?

[Mr Epee]

Teme is correct.

I only have the umlauts hot-keyed on my keyboard, not the tildes. In laziness, I have mislead.

Interestingly enough when fencing, as we know it, first came to Hungary (mostly from Italy), Hungarian was not the primary language, so the most precise definitions of the weapon names may not be entirely appropriate.

kés - is the most common word for knife (Table, Kitchen, Etc)

[Christopher J Umbs]

Well, since y'all are on the subject. Here are the new sabres from CAS.

Chris
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.casiberia.com/cas/produc...ubsubcat=Sabres


http://www.casiberia.com/cas/images/products/SH2199.jpg
($120)
One of the rapidly growing arts within historical fencing societies is that of sabre fencing in the late 19th century Italian style, originating with fencing masters who were employed to train mounted troops in the effective use of military sabre. This particular sabre (SH2199) is based on an original used by Italian fencing master Salvatore Pecoraro. The hilt design developed by Pecoraro has been reproduced in our fencing sabre SH2199, with a stainless steel guard & a wire-wrapped imitation sharkskin grip. The high-carbon flex-tempered steel blade closely follows the proportions of the period and is button-tipped for safety. A replacement blade (OH2264) is available for the Pecoraro Sabre.
OVERALL LENGTH: 44
WEIGHT: 1lb 3oz

http://www.casiberia.com/cas/images/products/SH2200.jpg
($105)
Guiseppe Radaelli, 19th century Milanese fencer of the northern Italian school, is noted for the development of modern sabre play with a light, narrow-bladed weapon. Radaelli was a teacher of mounted troops and was concerned exclusively with the military use of the sabre. The Radaelli Sabre (SH2200) is replicated from an original piece with remarkable balance, durability, and swiftness. . The hilt design developed by Radaelli has been reproduced in our fencing sabre SH220, with a stainless steel guard & a wire-wrapped imitation sharkskin grip. The high-carbon flex-tempered steel blade closely follows the proportions of the period and is button-tipped for safety. A replacement blade (OH2264) is available for the Radaelli Sabre.
OVERALL LENGTH: 44
WEIGHT: 1lb 3oz

http://www.casiberia.com/cas/images/products/SH2201.jpg
($98.70)
A proponent of the French school of fencing, Alfred Hutton was a British fencing master that did much to modernize sabre technique as it was fenced at the time. Hutton is acknowledged for breathing new life into the sport of fencing after it had fallen into the category of anachronistic, esoteric activities. The Hutton Sabre (SH2201) is crafted after an original with a stainless steel guard & a wire-wrapped imitation sharkskin grip. The blade & hilt of the Hutton sabre are closer to the style of the true military sabre. The blade is somewhat shortened & lightened, with a rounded tip for effective training.
OVERALL LENGTH: 37
WEIGHT: 1lb 5oz

[DanInMI]

Originally Posted by edew

I was at the airport in SFO going to Denver, with two other fencers from my club. While waiting to check-in, I casually asked how many weapons he brought with them. One answered three, the other said I shouldn't have said "weapons" at the airport. The woman standing next to us did a double-take and her mind probably went "bing-bing-bing-bing!"

I explained that it was fencing and decided to call them sporting equipment. So no, fencing blades are not weapons anymore. At least not within 1000 feet of any airport.

They are also not "weapons" on any school property....

[VERITAS]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Here's some more semantic quibbling for you: the estoc, many rapiers and some smallswords did not have sharpened edges, and they were definitely swords. Several Norse sagas mention swords so dulled by use that midway through a battle they would no longer 'bite'. But they did not stop being swords at that instant. They just became blunt ones.

However, except in the very broad sense adopted by Noodle and ThatReallyHurt, no, modern Olympic 'weapons' aren't really weapons ( or swords, either ), French and Spanish appelations to the contrary notwithstanding. ( Is a glue or soldering 'gun' really a gun? Is an Olympic 'hammer' a real hammer? Lots of words are used for things they no longer are anymore, strictly speaking. )

The fencing sabre...well, I've held no end of cavalry sabres, including copies of the straight-bladed British 1908 Infantry and Cavalry sabres, and they feel and handle nothing like ours. Castle called even the Radaelli sabre a 'silly little toy' in comparison to the real things, and much though it pains me to admit it he was right...and ours is even more toy-like. Nor is the foil anything like a smallsword, really---and inasmuch as it was devised to be a mere training tool from the outset it is of the three the least weapon-like. The epee comes closest to a 'real' weapon, but even it is only descended from its sharp counterpart...

It seems to me there is much more cause for calling our fencing equipment "swords" since they retain the form and function of swords, but not "weapons" since they are no longer in the same class as guns, knives, clubs, etc.

Definitely correct about the sabre. Toy-like, especially compared with the specimens Chris Umbs linked to. Those are pretty. Thanks for the links.

Although the foil really isn't that far from the smallsword. Practice smallswords that I have seen seem to be just a somewhat heavier, prettier, shorter, and more deadly version of the foil.

An epee with the stoutest blade on the market sharpened to a point would be nearly identical to a dueling weapon.

And if you treat the swords as if they are real, and fence 1-touch epee bouts, that's as close as you can get to what duelling within limits of legality.

Anyway, the semantics of the language of fencing are truly confusing.

EDIT: BTW, How do you like those sabres you linked to, Chris? I'm interested in getting some variety of heavy sabre.
Thanks,


charley

[Victor]

Excerpt lifted (without permission) from http://www.footballresearch.com/arti...topic=a-to1633 ... I cannot vouch for the veracity of the research, but it at least provides an interesting perspective of a particular sport's history.

Because I have to wonder: Does the recreational football player or fan whine on his message board, "That particular move doesn't reflect the asthetics of football and its rich cultural history. It's not 'real' football ..."

Romanticizing the nature of a modern sport fencing blade won't win you any points in an athletic competition. Some folks should probably learn to keep the two perspectives separate.

According to one school of thought, the origin of football and all other ball games stems from ancient fertility rites. There were no Cro-Magnon sportswriters around to chronicle the Primitive League, but anthropologists, archeologists, and other ologists concerned with matters ancient have pieced together an interesting theory from pottery shards, fossilized grain, old ashes, splintered bones, dusty doohickeys, and the customs of primitive people who still exist in the world today. The ologists point out that representations of the sun are used by many primitives in magic ceremonies to fructify soil and all growing things. Often discs are hung on trees or buried in the ground. Sometimes a ball is used. These primitive men believe the success of their crops depends in some way on how they handle the symbolic sun. Many ologists reason that what is true of today's primitives was often true of people living thousands of years ago.

Sometimes the ball-sun, perhaps only a round stone, was tossed back and forth in a kind of ritual. Soon tribes divided into groups or teams. The ritual began to take on the aspect of a contest with the teams competing for final possession of the sun. Victory could mean bountiful crops, healthy children, success in war, relief from hemorrhoids, and a whole raft of cosmic consequences. Often the contest was conducted east to west -- in the direction the sun moved. Not surprisingly, the ball-sun might first be sprinkled with water to insure rain -- and fumbles.

In some cases, a team tried to move the sun toward a goal, such as a tree, which symbolized growing things. If a goal could be hit with the sun, it meant all that grew would be impregnated with the source of warmth and life. Sometimes the object of the game was to bring the sun into contact with the soil by dropping it into a hole in the ground. But even the throwing of the sun back and forth had magical results. Merely handling the symbol of fertility correctly brought virility and fruitfulness to those who needed it. In other words, it wasn't whether you won or lost, but how you played the game.

A related theory, but one with less appeal to the fastidious, suggests that the symbolic object used in play was the severed head of an animal that had been sacrificed. The teams fought for possession in order to bury it in their own ground -- a symbolic act and, at the same time, a practical fertilizer. The next time your favorite quarterback fades to pass, imagine if you will that the object he holds cradled in his hands is the head of an ox. It may give you a whole new perspective on the game.

A great deal of significance -- perhaps too much -- is placed on traces of ancient customs that survive into the modern world. For example, peasants in Devon, England, used to make a great ceremony of kicking a ball across a field after they'd planted potatoes on Good Friday. It's been noted that this was the season when the sun was most needed. Ergo, a symbolic sun ceremony! On the other hand, it could have been simply a way of expressing natural exuberance upon finishing a tiresome but necessary job. Now they had time to play!

These speculations on ancient origins hold a certain fascination and, indeed, may contain more than a kernal of truth. And yet, we should remember that jock antiquarians often compete with each other in assigning earlier and still earlier origins to their favorite games. Only a few sports -- basketball is one -- recognize an official date of inception ...

[sabreur]

Originally Posted by Christopher J Umbs

Well, since y'all are on the subject. Here are the new sabres from CAS.

Chris
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.casiberia.com/cas/produc...ubsubcat=Sabres


http://www.casiberia.com/cas/images/products/SH2199.jpg
($120)
OVERALL LENGTH: 44
WEIGHT: 1lb 3oz

http://www.casiberia.com/cas/images/products/SH2200.jpg
($105)
OVERALL LENGTH: 44
WEIGHT: 1lb 3oz

http://www.casiberia.com/cas/images/products/SH2201.jpg
($98.70)
OVERALL LENGTH: 37
WEIGHT: 1lb 5oz

Chris, These seem somewhat heavy to me, compared to the period versions that I own.

However, if the FIE keeps screwing with the rules, I may come over to the darkside. Not much ambiguity about the validity when you hit someone with one of these things. As long as I can fence Northern Italian (fingers and wrist), rather than Radaellian (from the elbow).

MR

[SamIam]

[quote=noodle]yes, they're real weapons.

you can hold a sabre by the tip and club someone with the bell quite effectively.



I prefer to hold sabres by the handle while I club someone with the bell. It leaves such a nice "waffle" pattern on their nose

[sarmaticus]

Originally Posted by Christopher J Umbs

Well, since y'all are on the subject. Here are the new sabres from CAS.
Chris
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.casiberia.com/cas/images/products/SH2199.jpg
($120)
One of the rapidly growing arts within historical fencing societies is that of sabre fencing in the late 19th century Italian style, originating with fencing masters who were employed to train mounted troops in the effective use of military sabre. This particular sabre (SH2199) is based on an original used by Italian fencing master Salvatore Pecoraro.

I own an original one of these and in my reckless youth, used to fence steam sabre at the club with it for a while. I didn't have to alter technique or tactics one iota.
The reference to football etc. is wide of the mark IMHO. Football did not evolve from a weapon used in directly training for or engaging in fighting. Football's conventions did not originate in a deliberate attempt to introduce into it a representation of the fear of injury or death that would have present in the use of the same or similar weapons in a fight.
Fencing is a sport and a martial art so it's relationship to combat is integral to it. It is one of the humanist arts in which intellect and beauty were supposed to correspond with utility. It isn't an art per se - so we don't give style marks; it isn't just a sport, hence we have a ROW in foil and sabre that gives a representation of the lethal threat that belongs in a combat but not a game. Epee, that does not have ROW has to hope that the scoring system to generate hit-without-being-hit situations but dispenses with the intervention of a referee, who would be absent from a true combat.
Those were the intentions of the founders of fencing. Many fencers enjoy the sport oblivious of those roots and traditions but their happy innocence doesn't mean the relationship to combat doesn't exist.