Dry fencing

[jeff]

I've done a lot of dry fencing, especially in The Olde Days, and I think Brad and telkanuru describe it well. Even with skilled judges and referees, it's very hard to accurately judge material hits. Without skilled referees, error rates are ridiculously high.

Comments about "honor" are misplaced: dry events in fencing were notorious for favoritism, including at the Olympics. The "honor" refrain comes from a community that has few real competitions, and where observance of the forms and rituals are much more important than actually winning touches.

Calling touches on yourself is overrated anyway: the last person you want to ask about a questionable touch is the fencer receiving it. Presumably he or she was busy fencing and looking at the opponent, not looking down at their own torso (especially their own back!) to see if the pressure they felt the point or the upwards bend after hitting somewhere else.

Gracious acknowledgement of a touch, and rules of thumb like "when in doubt, throw it out" are concessions to the fact that there really was a touch, but dry judging was inadequate.

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by Repost-hole

I find that dry fencing takes much more honour and trust in order to execute properly; instead of a machine telling you if you won, you have to decide together.

If you think the machine is telling you if you won, you're doing it wrong. The machine tells you if you hit or not.

Better a machine than 4 people-even if they are your best friends. "I can't BELIEVE you didn't call that hit! Were you rubbing your blind eyes or something?!" "You missed." "YOU'RE AN IDIOT!"-actual conversation 25+ years ago after a tournament.

[Mauler]

Ah, memories.....

Good ol' days of dry Sabre fencing, when you had to "make 8 good touches to earn 5." Rampant cheating by teammates, friends, even by enemies/rivals sometimes because they mutually wanted to "cancel out" certain incompatible opponents from advancing into the next round. Competent and honest Presidents of Jury being out-voted by the Jury with alterior agenda. Passionately shared fashion among unscruplous Sabre fencers of wearing big metal rings on their non-weapon hand to convince the Jury that the metal clang they heard must, in fact, have been a carte parry.

The way I was taught and fenced Sabre (before we were blessed with a few years of utter confusion and chaos that was introduction of electric Sabre), it wasn't wise to "fence the director" as the saying went. In reality, of course, we did. But left to that alone, it was still too random and unreliable to be a method for achieving a predictable outcome. If I wanted any reasonable percentage of my shots to count, this is what I had to do:

I had to FIRST establish beyond a reasonable doubt by everyone in the house that Right-of-Way, in fact, was in my possession and mine alone, before I even entertain the notion of possibly attacking. It wasn't good enough to recognize the opening/opportunity and making an appropriate action. I had to be the cause of that opening occurring in the first place, so that everyone can see that I wanted to make that shot.

And THEN, not only did I have to make the valid touch, but I had to land that shot in such a way, there is no possibility of doubt or grounds for denial by anyone in the house (including the two making out under the bleechers on the other side of the gym) that my attack, in fact, landed.

Same with blade contacts. If I were going to make a blade contact, it had better be damned intentional and so well set up, even the blind janitor taking a piss into the boiler downstairs knew it was mine.

These vonluntary (arguably necessary) "self-constraints" stunted the growth of quality Sabre fencing in my neck of woods (and many more) for a very long time, with the exception of small pockets of ultra-high quality environment here and there. Worst of all, the very nature of the dry judging system reduced the quality of fencing down to the least common denominator of the President and the Jury -- both in competence and ethical standard. When the fencers first started the pool bouts, we had to figure out who the dumbest director/jury was, and then calibrate how stupid we have to fence that day in order to win. Definitely not a good environment by any standards.

Electric fencing brought many new demons into Sabre fencing. But at least, now we can hold one person accountable, as opposed to god knows how many (in a typical dry tournament we would've had to "figure out" as many as dozen different directors/jury), and it's far easier to determine whether they're making honest mistakes at certain calls, or they're flat out not competent for the level of fencing taking place at that moment. Which means, with fewer "lost touches," fencers can re-establish and resume their fencing at a mutually-"accepted" level. And this way, overall quality control is considerably easier to manage.

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by Mauler

Ah, memories.....

Good ol' days of dry Sabre fencing, when you had to "make 8 good touches to earn 5." Rampant cheating by teammates, friends, even by enemies/rivals sometimes because they mutually wanted to "cancel out" certain incompatible opponents from advancing into the next round. Competent and honest Presidents of Jury being out-voted by the Jury with alterior agenda. Passionately shared fashion among unscruplous Sabre fencers of wearing big metal rings on their non-weapon hand to convince the Jury that the metal clang they heard must, in fact, have been a carte parry.

*Snip*Snip*

Electric fencing brought many new demons into Sabre fencing. But at least, now we can hold one person accountable, as opposed to god knows how many (in a typical dry tournament we would've had to "figure out" as many as dozen different directors/jury), and it's far easier to determine whether they're making honest mistakes at certain calls, or they're flat out not competent for the level of fencing taking place at that moment. Which means, with fewer "lost touches," fencers can re-establish and resume their fencing at a mutually-"accepted" level. And this way, overall quality control is considerably easier to manage.

You could have been describing where I learned to fence. Except you left out "follow through"-leaving your arm and blade out there against your opponent's body, and realizing that HIS judges can see the touches but yours can't so you loose 3 quick points hurrying the "judge swap" and hoping you can make up the difference to win 5-3

[Christopher J Umbs]

Well, the offer remains open....

http://www.ahfi.org/grandassault2005/

Rules are at
http://www.ahfi.org/rules/

Veritas, this goes double for you and your classsmates. Come on down. Ithaca isn't that far from NYC. BTW, do you know if Tri-Cities Academy in Binghampton is still active and planning on having their foil tournament this year?

Chris

[oiuyt]

The last date to withdraw (with a refund) is a week prior to the entry deadline? How does that make much sense?

Mmmm, already have good tournaments on both days of that weekend in Boston and Connecticut (with an overload on one of those days of alternate good tournaments in NYC and South Jersey). Busy weekend. Guess I won't be going.

-B :)

[glowstix]

in the beginning, dry fencing is not that bad since its probably all you knew of at the time but once you go electric you never go back..unless you have to of course..

[swordwench]

Dry fencing... BLASPHEMY! I never fence unless there's an open bar nearby. Ohhh, *that* kind of dry fencing...

I started out dry because that's about all we did in my club at the time - most people still do. Lots of pleasantries arguing ROW and first blood, lots of questions of slapping vs. real touches, lots of "do-overs". Then I started doing electric because I was determined to cure myself of my worst habit - my hits landing not-quite-dead-on in foil. Surprise: so many things I thought were good hits just *weren't*. It was humbling.

The problem is, now whenever I do dry, I stand there saying, "You know, that wouldn't have set off the box" when someone hits with an obvious slap. But they don't know and don't care, and I find myself fencing a lot of the bouts in a half-hearted way, where I used to be out for blood with every touch. Like it's just practice, it doesn't matter, there's nothing proving things one way or the other, I'll be hooked up again soon, blah blah blah. This doesn't happen against folks that *do* hook up when they can - just the non-electric ones.

The thing that really threw me off was the switch from dry to electric epee. So much more pressure is needed to set off the box than what we all thought when we were doing dry. So many of the foily tactics I'd been using in dry were rendered useless in electric. We tended to call the slightest touches! Still getting used to that...

[striker]

Originally Posted by jeff

................................
Comments about "honor" are misplaced: dry events in fencing were notorious for favoritism, including at the Olympics. The "honor" refrain comes from a community that has few real competitions, and where observance of the forms and rituals are much more important than actually winning touches.
...............................

Because you happen not to be aware of some event does not mean that
the event does not or did not happen. It depends on which salle you are
talking about. There are some salles where there is little if any competition.
However there are salles that attempt to setup regular competition
events. Salem Classical Fencing seems to be doing a better job than
the others.
http://salem.classicalfencing.us/tournaments/index.htm

The results of the poll are also very interesting. So far 32% have voted
that they do not have any objections to dry fencing. Also 16% have voted
50/50 . It is not a shame to do dry fencing. Actually dry fencing helps reduce
the wear and tear on the electrical blades. Dry fencing makes even more
sense when taking lessons from the Fencing Master, practicing a technical
lesson with a partner, or performing practice sparring sessions with a partner.
Also, I have noticed that Saber fencers that I have met do not have
this phobia against dry fencing. These Saber fencers are sports fencers
not classical fencers. They do a lot of their practice and bouting sessions
with dry saber. However when they are bouting to prepare for an
upcoming tournament they hook up the electrical equipment.

[Philistine]

Originally Posted by striker

{snip}
The results of the poll are also very interesting. So far 32% have voted
that they do not have any objections to dry fencing. Also 16% have voted
50/50 .

Not "no objection", but rather 32% have voted that they don't "hate" dry fencing. Talk about damning with faint praise.....

It is not a shame to do dry fencing. Actually dry fencing helps reduce
the wear and tear on the electrical blades.

While this obviously doesn't apply to sabre, how many foilists and eppeists who have electrical equipment switch weapons to a non-electric when they are taking a lesson or doing dry bouting? (Honestly curious). I'd say dry fencing more reduces wear and tear on lames and body cords (but that may be my sabre bias coming out).

Dry fencing makes even more sense when taking lessons from the Fencing Master, practicing a technical lesson with a partner

That's true--though I'm not sure I've ever seen people taking lessons hooked up, or even drilling hooked up.

or performing practice sparring sessions with a partner.

I disagree. Why does dry fencing make sense in sparring?

Also, I have noticed that Saber fencers that I have met do not have
this phobia against dry fencing. These Saber fencers are sports fencers
not classical fencers. They do a lot of their practice and bouting sessions
with dry saber. However when they are bouting to prepare for an
upcoming tournament they hook up the electrical equipment.

I've noticed that too. It's probably (to my thinking) that especially older sabre fencers fenced dry in competition when they learned and even later, lack of equipment, or cost, still made dry fencing common until fairly recently.

Also, dry sabre doesn't have the issues of flat hits that foil or epee does, where it's not just a question of whether you hit, but whether you hit properly--complicating the issue.

I would probably enjoy doing a dry tournament for old times sake. Though I suspect that I would probably not feel the need to do it again for another 15 years....

--Philistine

[VERITAS]

Originally Posted by Christopher J Umbs

Well, the offer remains open....

http://www.ahfi.org/grandassault2005/

Rules are at
http://www.ahfi.org/rules/

Veritas, this goes double for you and your classsmates. Come on down. Ithaca isn't that far from NYC. BTW, do you know if Tri-Cities Academy in Binghampton is still active and planning on having their foil tournament this year?

Chris

Thank you much for your invitation. If I ever can make it out to NYC I will surely visit, hopefully when you have one of your tournaments. I hear from my instructors Alexis and Sean that the event was a blast!

Forgive me if my username misled you: I am not from Master Crown's salle In Ferro Veritas in Ithaca, but rather I attend the Marquette University Classical Fencing Society in Milwaukee.
My name is taken from the name of my old elementary school whose name is taken from the quote from an encyclical of Pope John Paul II in my sig. Sorry for the confusion. Ironic that Truth would be misleading, isn't it?

And I don't know about TCA. They haven't sent my latest order of italian parts yet, so I don't know what's going on.

-charley

[Bayou Bum]

Originally Posted by Schiavona

Brad, you should try dry sabre sometime.

I can't believe that some people think dry fencing is "better". Is using leeches to heal someone "better" than modern medicine?

Actually, sometimes leeches are the best medicine and as a matter of fact, they are used in "modern medicine". One example ... after attaching severed limbs they are used to stimulated blood circulation.

I keep some in my toolbox in case someone looses a finger fencing sabre.

As for dry fencing ... I think practice is better with it. Too many fencers treat practice like a tournament, more interested in winning a bout than learning. Because of this, I have seen many fencers never try anything new. They are also the same ones that stand around all night waiting for electric scoring machines to become available. I wouldn't want to fence a tournament dry, but I think it should be used more at practice.

Except Sabre ... who needs a scoring machine for Sabre anyway!

[Christopher J Umbs]

Originally Posted by VERITAS

Forgive me if my username misled you: I am not from Master Crown's salle In Ferro Veritas in Ithaca, but rather I attend the Marquette University Classical Fencing Society in Milwaukee.-charley

Oh... well then, you get a pass

Please say hi to Alexis and Sean for me. I should be at Lansing this year.

Chris

[Schiavona]

All my remarks about dry or steam fencing in my previous posts referenced fencing in tournaments only, not fencing in club or while taking lessons. Dry tournaments, in my expirence, were long drawn out torture sessions.

[striker]

Originally Posted by Philistine

............................
Not "no objection", but rather 32% have voted that they don't "hate" dry fencing. Talk about damning with faint praise.....

While this obviously doesn't apply to sabre, how many foilists and eppeists who have electrical equipment switch weapons to a non-electric when they are taking a lesson or doing dry bouting?

That's true--though I'm not sure I've ever seen people taking lessons hooked up, or even drilling hooked up.

I disagree. Why does dry fencing make sense in sparring?
.............................

I have my own interpretation of the poll and others have their
own interpretation. Some see the glass half empty, and I see it half full.
Let's leave it at that.

I have seen many beginning and intermediate Foil students using dry foil
while taking group or individual lessons. Some students prefer to use
electric foil for all occasions whether it is practice or real bouts.
That is their choice. I have not seen anyone hooked up to electric
box while taking individual or group lessons. Hooking up does not serve
any purpose.


Sparring session to me is still a practice session with another partner.
I used the word partner here not opponent.
We are trying to PRACTICE a certain action or a sequence of actions
in mobility and in a bout like unpredictable situation. We are not
counting points and we do not care who won or lost. In this context, sparring
is just another form of practice. In real bouts we do care about
who won or lost, and that is where the electric equipment can be a good
indicator.

[jeff]

Originally Posted by striker

Because you happen not to be aware of some event does not mean that
the event does not or did not happen. It depends on which salle you are talking about. There are some salles where there is little if any competition. However there are salles that attempt to setup regular competition events.

Nothing here contradicts what I said. Some salles sponsor competitions - very nice - but I still call that "few real competitions". NJ Division probably has more and larger junior foil events (for example) per year than all the non-electric, historical, classical competitions in the US added together. Go to classicalfencing group on Yahoo and you'll see how infrequently these events occur. The Salem event has something like 10 pre-entries, and juniors at that. That doesn't make them bad things, but my comment that they're infrequent still holds. And, club competitions don't meet my notion of "real".

I never said anything about taking lessons or doing drills dry. That's what I've always seen and done. In practice, if I'm working on a particular action, or if I'm just having a little casual fun, then I don't particularily need a machine. But, if you're training for competition, you want as much time on machine as possible to emulate competition conditions. Even in dry fencing you should practice (in foil) with an electric blade because the balance and weight are different. Fencing with dry foil blades feels different than with electric.

That said, I'm considering competing in the AHFI competition if time permits. I wanted to last year but had conflicts and may have again this year. The rules are slightly annoying: my few dry weapons have dummy electric blades, which are not permitted in AHFI (why?), so I would have to assemble weapons from dry parts, not to mention I don't have that many French and Italian bits. I also don't like the bit about having to call touches on yourself. Not because of sportsmanship issues (I acknowledge touches without qualm), but because (a) I'm out of the habit, and (b) it's the judge's job to see if I was hit, not mine.

[Repost-hole]

Originally Posted by striker

However there are salles that attempt to setup regular competition
events. Salem Classical Fencing seems to be doing a better job than
the others.
http://salem.classicalfencing.us/tournaments/index.htm

I happen to be a member of the Salem Club, so now everyone knows why I'm a dry fencing dude. I still maintain that, at least for me, keeping a sport firmly rooted in the traditions and paradigms from which it comes is important. I have nothing against electrical fencing, but as a practice for the duel to the death, it would suck. Big time. But dry fencing might just get you by...

[jeff]

Dry fencing would "get you by"? You mean, a system in which lethal hits are thrown out because the judges abstain, or if it's to the kidneys or flank where nobody sees it, is more realistic? I think electric fencing is more realistic. Hits that would draw blood are scored that never would be included in dry judging. Dry fencing (where it only counts if the judges see the point land and stick) is not necessarily good preparation for a situation with sharps.

Remember that foil was never intended to be "realistic" anyway, so the question is moot in the first place. ROW and restricted valid target let you do things you wouldn't do with sharps.