Dry fencing

[Rabid Monk]

I don't mind dry fencing.
I actually quite enjoy it.
Oh, sure, I miss electrics, and I love the feeling of the cable trailing behind me, but at my club, we mostly fence cry. It's all based on an honour system, and we're an honest bunch. I fence foil mostly, but I've never had a problem with fencing epee or sabre dry. Well, maybe epee, but that's because the fellow I fence epee against and I tend to lunch/attack at the same time, and wind up charging into each others blade. That hurts.
Dry is easier to set up than electric, and forces me to concentrate on making my motions very clear and precise, as well as following through with my hits. This has paid great dividends for me, making me a better fencer, now that the awkward adolescent stage has passed.

[VERITAS]

Originally Posted by howtobrew

When I was fencing last Friday night, there were several times during bouts (epee) that my opponent and I both had touches that didn't Light because they slid off the arm, thigh, or the jacket. How would those be "judged" Veritis?

Well, especially when we fence amongst ourselves, we generally do not accept points unless they are really indisputable touches.
If it made sufficient contact, the person hit would call the hit, or if there is a jury, the jury will decide. If it just slid off, it isn't a hit. It is passe.

One of the most memorable directors I have encountered would say to all his judges: "A False Negative is better than a False Postive"

This means that its better to decline a good touch than to accept a bad one. 'Good Fencing is Repeatable". If you really hit the other guy, and you are better, and you deserve to win, generally you can make the hit again.

This standard may seem unusual or demanding, but it works nicely. It fosters a wonderful chivalrous spirit, and prepares one very well for competition, especially electric.

It is easier to produce a touch on an electric machine. Judges may miss quick hits, and machines can be fooled by clever flicks. But of course your opponent has the same constraints.
It is of course possible to fence badly with or without electric apparatus. I have done so myself. But dry fencing with a chivalrous opponent and/or a skilled director is much more fun and more instructive.

-charley

[voi3ad]

There've been times when our limited space was cut in half, so some of us just fenced outside, which isn't going to happen if you drag reels, etc out.

[Victor]

Eh. (shrug) It is what it is.

[smeric28]

i loath dry fencing. we don't argue but sometimes i think i hit when my opponent dosen't. Not that i need the touch, but i like to know when things work and i don't think most of the people at my club are as objective as the box.

[jdzik]

The one time I've been to a dry competition, I liked it quite a lot.

First off, it was outside on a nice spring day. How marvelous, to fence on the grass under the blue sky and sun.

But most important, there were no whiners at the competition. All the poor sports, and all the folk who liked arguing with the refs, avoided the dry competition. Those who did come were willing to accept the fact that the judgments wouldn't be perfect - while I saw people who clearly didn't agree with some judges' calls, at most they shrugged and chalked it up to human limitations. As a result, everyone there was pleasant, and the competition was remarkably friendly.

(Not that competitions aren't usually friendly. But there always seems to be at least one person at an electric competition who is willing to make a big stink over nothing. That type of person avoids dry competitions, to the great benefit of the competition.)

Plus, it was a better way of limiting flicks than the new timings!

Joe

[kalivor]

Dry fencing seems to me like ... practice ...

I fence dry at practice for the most part. I assume the worst -- if it might have hit me, it did. If I might have missed my opponent, then I did ... although often my opponent is working on the same theory I am, and concedes the hit.

No arguing. Why? It's practice.

If it's close, and I assume that I'm fencing someone a bit better than my opponent, then whatever I was trying would not have worked (I'm hit or my opponent is not hit). Hence, in practice, my opponents are generally tougher than they are when I go to a tournament ... and there's no machine there to say "nope, that really did hit!" or "it landed flat!"

It confuses me when two people fencing dry start to argue over who got a hit: Why does it matter? Arguers will end up thinking that they're right, regardless. Then they'll go out to a competition and lose, because (at least some of the time) they were wrong. Practicing dry is fine, so long as you're making certain that you clearly score the point, rather than assuming that you score the point whether you did or not.

An example:

Originally Posted by howtobrew

When I was fencing last Friday night, there were several times during bouts (epee) that my opponent and I both had touches that didn't Light because they slid off the arm, thigh, or the jacket. How would those be "judged" Veritis?

If I were being hit, I'd:
(a) Finish the action.
(b) Concede the point ("That probably hit me, but it didn't stick well.")
(c) Assume (even if my opponent said "no way, that didn't hit") that if I were fencing someone better (or my opponent was more on his game) that it would be a certain hit against, and that I must fence better in order to avoid losing that point in a real competition.

Sometimes fencing with electrics can be better -- hits which might be light or flat will reveal themselves as hits or misses. In epee, it can certainly make a big difference in knowing who got the point.

But in all these situations, you can see that it's not a clear thing, anyways ... and it's practice. If you need a box to tell you that you've hit, or that your opponent's attack missed, and this makes a difference in the bout's outcome ... well, there's going to be big trouble when you arrive at a competition with better opponents.

[kalivor]

I ought to add a note that I would *not* like to actually compete dry. I just think that it's perfectly acceptable and often preferable in practice.

[RebelFencer]

I can't stand dry fencing and avoid it unless the situation is dire or I'm getting a lesson. Dry competition is great for Classical/traditional fencing, but not for serious competition (in my opinion).

[Repost-hole]

I find that dry fencing takes much more honour and trust in order to execute properly; instead of a machine telling you if you won, you have to decide together. Thus, you get a much better idea of what the opponent/partner is like. If fencing is going to be a pure sport with no connections with its past traditions, than electric is fine and good. If it remembers its past of honour, than dry fencing is invaluable. No flicking! Only a real stab will do.

[telkanuru]

Ick. Non-Electric epee ends up being: Did you hit? I dunno, I think so. Well I think you hit me. Who hit first? No clue. Et cetera. No practical use in bouting whatsoever.

[RebelFencer]

There is honor in competitive fencing all the time. I see people in foil acknowledging good touches their opponents get on them all the time, as well as Epeeists acknowledging that the touch hit the floor and not the foot. Fencing (for the most part) is a sport and it is better off for it. With the limited exposure of today, imagine if rec/traditional/classical fencing were all that was available. The minimal coverage we get now would be divided even more. The roots of fencing are interesting and we all know that fencing today wouldn't exist without the true fencing of the yesteryears, but the SPORT has evolved and so should we.

[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by Repost-hole

I find that dry fencing takes much more honour and trust in order to execute properly; instead of a machine telling you if you won, you have to decide together. Thus, you get a much better idea of what the opponent/partner is like. If fencing is going to be a pure sport with no connections with its past traditions, than electric is fine and good. If it remembers its past of honour, than dry fencing is invaluable. No flicking! Only a real stab will do.

I would then invite you to join classical fencing or the SCA and leave this horrible world of 'fake' hits behind. Also, the dichotomy you set up with sport and tradition is an overly simplistic one and therefore false.

[smeric28]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

Ick. Non-Electric epee ends up being: Did you hit? I dunno, I think so. Well I think you hit me. Who hit first? No clue. Et cetera. No practical use in bouting whatsoever.

Exactly what i was trying to say only you said it better

[oiuyt]

I fenced in my first dry foil tournament a few weeks ago.

President, 4 judges, all that.

It was.... interesting.

Times when in the course of a touch I would notice both judges facing me raise their hands, wonder why, as the president calls halt, then get distracted from that dilemma by the "reconstruction" of the phrase that is being made, get distracted from wondering how the president saw anything RESEMBLING what he just described by the judges both asserting that I had been hit. Bemusedly wonder WHERE they think the hit was as I wander back to my on guard line.

Picture perfect attack, parry-riposte, remise. President reconstructs action. Both judges assert the initial attack arrived. President shrugs, says that he's outnumbered/overruled and awards hit. After bout (finished on the next touch) one of the judges asks ME "so what exactly happened on that touch?" When I said that I believed that I had made a parry (pointing out that, indeed, by rule I had not, given that he and the other judge had ruled in favor of a valid attack by my opponent), which my opponent followed with a remise as I was riposting, he replied "oh, okay. I knew that you'd been hit at some point, but I wasn't sure what had happened so I just said "yes"". Successfully restrain myself from additional comment.

The opponent who routinely riposted by swinging the blade on a flat arc in a plane parallel to the floor and in the direction fairly close to perpendicular to the length of the strip, resulting in the top 6-8" of blade arriving as would a sabre chest cut, yet managing to get BOTH judges to signal valid touch (with a referee who abstained) 4 times in a pool bout.

It really drove home what is meant by the old saying "four blind men and a thief".

That said, I enjoyed it. Once. I will likely not return to other tournaments at that club. I would consider attempting additional dry tournaments in the future at other locations where I trust the presiding/judging somewhat more. At least once.

-B :)

[parrythis]

For casual bouting - no judges, no director - I frequently fence "dry" and have no problem with it. I do, however, fence electric - even for casual bouts - whenever possible as it helps me to prepare for tournaments.

If fencing in any kind of competition - no matter how low-key - I would prefer electric. Relying on judges when a finishing position is on the line can be frustrating.

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

I fenced in my first dry foil tournament a few weeks ago.

President, 4 judges, all that.

It was.... interesting.

-B

Brad, you should try dry sabre sometime.

I can't believe that some people think dry fencing is "better". Is using leeches to heal someone "better" than modern medicine?

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by Schiavona

Brad, you should try dry sabre sometime.

I can't believe that some people think dry fencing is "better". Is using leeches to heal someone "better" than modern medicine?

I don't think you are being fair...



to the leeches.

Modern use of leeches

[RebelFencer]

Originally Posted by Schiavona

I can't believe that some people think dry fencing is "better". Is using leeches to heal someone "better" than modern medicine?

You sir, just made my day.

[chiz]

Originally Posted by Schiavona

Brad, you should try dry sabre sometime.

I can't believe that some people think dry fencing is "better". Is using leeches to heal someone "better" than modern medicine?

A dry epee tournament, is it possible? Not after using a scoring box. However, taking a lesson from my coach is usually done without wires. And practice on an attack done dry eliminates the distraction of the scoring box and the time delay.

A dry tournament, where would you find a group of directors and judges with enough experience to judge the events? Maybe Nick E. and his ilk can pull it off for their needs, but from my experience, modern competitors lack skilled directors that use scoring boxes.

Chiz