Beat v. Press in epee

[Epee Scherma]

I was told by a coach that pressing upon the opponent's blade momentarily is a better preparation for attack in epee rather than a beat, in general. This is because a hard beat does not buy enough time to land the point and so it's an ineffective preparation for this weapon. The coach did not say beats were totally useless, because they are good when used to feel out your opponent or mess up their timing.

I personally think that a hard beat IS more effective, because most opponents I know aren't going to let me put a little pressure on their blade, even for a second. They usually react to derobe or do something when this action occurs. If you beat the blade, there seems less of a chance for your opponent to react against the beat. A beat is much faster.

So my question to you epee fencers: What do you prefer, to beat or put pressure against the opponent's blade, as a preparation for immediate attack?

Could the reason my coach have recommended pressing over beating is because his competitive experience came from the late 70's - 80's? Maybe pressing was more common in epee back then.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I prefer to beat. If you have a strong arm, you can beat your opponents blade off of the line, and then you have replaced the line, and you are set for the attack. Against a stronger opponent, it may not be possible to move thier blade adequately, so a press might be more effective.

[mrbiggs]

I once fenced (and was beaten 5-1 by) a B rated epeeist who, every touch against me, beat 4 and fleched. He was just fast and strong enough to get the point on before I could.

Needless to say, he switched it up more against better fencers.

[daveappr]

I also prefer the beat; most competitors in my area will not allow you even momentary pressure on the blade, instead utilizing a quick disengage or derobement to escape. However, we still drill with the press and try to apply it to set up other actions to follow

[keith]

the beat does not guarantee a safe open line.

With a partner have them beat your blade and hit to wrist, now treat their beat as your beat - as soon as you feel the beat aim to hit their wrist. The advantage will rest with whoever has better point control, up until the beat is so violent that it is a disarming stroke (at this point it should start to become much easier to see the beat coming and disengage it).

The press provides just another way of setting up the offensive action, and gives lots of timing variations (just like the beat). Engage/press, Engage,pause,press, engage direct (no press), etc and once your opponent is scared of the engagement a further set of options comes into play, perhaps a beat?

Is either a beat or press better *shrug*, I would simply focus on integrating the action into your arsenal. You may find you fence better using it as a backup to the beat or the beat as a backup to the press, or fence entirely in absence.

Coaches each have their own tactical framework, you work with a given coach and you study their tactical framework. Over time and different coaches you will eventually build up your own style, and then your opinion of what is the best tactical framework - and so the wheel keeps turning.

[nahouw]

Originally Posted by Epee Scherma

I was told by a coach that pressing upon the opponent's blade momentarily is a better preparation for attack in epee rather than a beat, in general. This is because a hard beat does not buy enough time to land the point and so it's an ineffective preparation for this weapon. The coach did not say beats were totally useless, because they are good when used to feel out your opponent or mess up their timing.

The press is better because through sentiment du fer, you can read and anticipate your opponent's reaction. Most have not been trained to respond to a press, only a beat, so you gain some time. If they derobe upon a press, you can then can counter beat and hit -- it buys you more time. Or, if you feel no reaction, you can close out their blade and inhibit their reaction. If your beat isn't crisp and immediately followed with an attack, then you have telegraphed too much information. The beats can be used to gather information and provoke the opponent.

[Victor]

It's not an either-or choice. The answer (like so much in life) depends on circumstances and your own abilities.

A beat on one opponent's blade might rattle him enough so that he overreacts (with a beat of his own, perhaps) and leave you an opening. On the other hand, another opponent might be more susceptible to being lulled into a slow press. You've got to read the person you're facing and employ the most effective tactics as they apply to that opponent.

[Alain]

Like soooo many things in fencing; it depends. To a certain extent, it depends upon the distance and timing, but mostly it's about what you want to do. I guess you have to work backwards: depending upon how you want your opponent to react you would use either a beat, or a pressure.

Don't forget that the aim of doing a beat isn't to smash your opponent's blade, but to get them to react; I was always taught that, when doing a beat, the movement should always be from your fingers and your blade should stop almost exactly at the point where it makes contact with your opponent's. Also, if you're going to do a feint (in foil as well as épée), you should aim to your opponent's face as it will draw a better response.

Anyway, don't forget that whether you do a beat or a parry, you should never rush in. Do your preparation, wait to see what your opponent opponent does, and then act accordingly!

[Twinkletoes]

" Also, if you're going to do a feint (in foil as well as épée), you should aim to your opponent's face as it will draw a better response." ALAIN


This goes with the notion that a hundred thousand years of evolution
says to you " that epee is going to hit me right in the face!! I need to parry."

I would agree that the percentile change of illiciting a reaction to a feint attack to the face is higher than that of a feint to the body.


cheers

Marc

[CvilleFencer]

For me it is both. A lot of the newer/lower level fencers I bout with I just beat and shoot. I am quick enough to get the hit. With better fencers I like to mix it up a bit to get a feel for them. I like the press and the options that it gives me but with a lot of the better fencers in my area there is a great deal of absence of blade until they have commited to the attack. Both have their place, and it is difficult to use some of the more classical fencing complications such as transferments and envelopments unless you understand the use of the press, even if it is not at the top of your prepatory actions.

[Epee Scherma]

At the risk of threadjacking my own thread:
How effective do you think feinting to the mask is? I've always thought of a hit to the mask as MORE deceptive (provided it is fast enough). I think of it as more deceptive because we are always focusing on the peripheral and far out distances (your opponent's target areas). However, we never focus on what is a couple feet in front of our noses (like an attack headed for the mask). We may react to the body/arm movement coming forward, but our reaction to the intended placement of the opponent's tip is slightly delayed. Think of it like trying to read a book with small print, but focusing your vision on a wall 6 feet ahead. How well can you read the book without focusing on it?

So, my question for Alain or twinkletoes (who were the starters to my whole post), or any epeeist interested in answering: In order for your feint to the mask to be effective in drawing a strong response, do you make this feint quite slow? Or does it depend on a variety of factors, to overcome this visual acuity... defecit that I talk of such as angulation, speed, timing, or tempo.

Or do you completely disagree with my belief that there is visual weakness in your close ranged vision when fencing? I am very interested in your comments!
If you have no comment on this, feel free to answer the my topic-starting post.

[Victor]

I'm sorry, but we can't allow you to hijack this thread. It's rude to the guy who, umm ... started this ... thread because ...

Oh, nevermind.

[Epee Scherma]

It's ok victor. Just imagine a bus driver threatening himself with a weapon, and driving to a destination he had not intended. This metaphor should help you understand my unusual behavior. Yes, I know my previous post was very philosophical, and questioned the meaning of everything. So if it helps, imagine not only a bus driver hijacking his own bus, but a bus driver who was also quite high.

[Alain]

Originally Posted by Epee Scherma

How effective do you think feinting to the mask is?

A feint to mask can work wonders as long as the your distance, timing, and follow-up all come together. Having done any beat, your point should still be more or less in line (as I mentioned in a previous post)... straight after the beat, lead with your point and feint to mask; you should get a better reaction feinting to mask than to body, because your opponent will feel more threatened ('specially if they wear a visor mask...).

In my opinion, I think the feint should be made immediately after having done the beat, as it should instill a bigger sense of panic/fear in your opponent. Often, if you know exactly how your opponent will react (if they have a favourite parry, for example), then this will give you more time to continue your attack.

A slower feint could work, but I wouldn't do it. For me, I feel that the whole idea of a beat-feint is to draw an immediate response, and doing a slower feint takes away its effectiveness by giving your opponent more time to react.

All this is just one feint, don't forget that in épée feints can work well to other parts of the body, most commonly hand but another good one is to leg.

[grotto]

both are equally effective in my estimation. A press and decieve, or a press which finishes can be great sneaky attacks for all the reasons expressed above. A properly executed Beat is equally effective. I use this alot to very good effect. Not a strong beat but one which has just enough juice to rattle the hand and give me an opening. Typically it phrase goes beat opponent overcompensates for the beat, decieve and hit the new opening.

[sreckiki]

Originally Posted by Epee Scherma

How effective do you think feinting to the mask is?

Just to allow me to follow this thread. You want to feint to the mask to do what????

Because, I think that the mask is almost the furthest target you can get, so in order to make a feint you need, at least, to be close enough to the target to make your opponent react a little bit. And if you are close enough to make a feint to the mask, you can hit the arm... or you're really likely to get touched.

I don't consider the mask as a possible "feinted" target. It's way too risky for what you can gain. So for me, the mask is only a direct target or a punition if the guy does a bad foot touch!

[Mr Epee]

1. Press - VS - Beat

If I'm planning to close the distance, in epee, I would not use a beat. Beats tend to scare people, and when scared, people are more prone to do unpredictable things. As an attacker, I much prefer my opponent to be comfortable right up to the point where he's hit.

To be a successful attacker in epee, you must be able to create. This means being able to control your opponent.

It's amazing how easy it can be for a reaction flail to turn on a light in epee, so why risk it.


2. In epee, pretty much everything goes, but feinting to the mask is absurd.

It is neither a close target, or a linear one.

Anyone who would react to such an action would be a total boob.

[keith]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Anyone who would react to such an action would be a total boob.

.... and of course none of these people fence epee.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by keith

.... and of course none of these people fence epee.

You're right!

They are probably off inventing new foil terminology for the various reasons they regularly get smashed like guitars in C rated local club competitions.

[jBirch]

Beat vs. Press

It depends. A properly executed beat (with a whip like action) in 4 has you bouncing off the blade and coming in to the wrist almost naturally. If you close the distance with that, your opponent has to recover their blade from the beat and then retarget on the fly. A good high hand position and your opponent has a real devil of a time hitting the forward target: usually retargeting the body and changing the distance to get the double hit. Coupled with good footwork and good preparation (a good beat will almost always draw a stop hit against better opponents) and you've got a pretty predictable response.

One of my favourite techniques is to beat in 4 then bind in 8 w/ opposition to the thigh. The stop hit response from the beat almost always comes out with a high hand going for top of wrist and the motion from beat recover, target, disengage over the top is almost too much for most fencers.

The press is quite handy when your opponent will give you the blade to play with. So many upper level epeeists are now fencing in absence that opportunities for prise de fer actions are getting scarce. Neglecting the beat is leaving a big hole in your game, methinks.

Besides, press-disengage to wrist is such an effective strategy for your opponent to do against you that you almost end up using the press itself as a way to draw a disengage which then can be parried w/ opposition. I do, however, find that press to the outside (6 against righties, 4 against lefties) tends to make the disengage a little more difficult for your opponent to perform. It's most effective when coupled with a froisement and then used like a beat I think.

Mask Target

If you can get your opponent looking at your blade, a feint to mask is very effective. Any time any motion comes towards your eyes, you tend to flinch and/or close them. It's not so good a feint to get a response from your opponent, but is great for freezing them in place. Although the high-low (feint head, hit thigh) has been done so often that the head feint is often simultaneously a thigh feint amongst experienced fencers. The head is best used, IMHO, as the final sequential target in a top of wrist-bicep-shoulder sequence or in a toe attack-riposte.

James.