John Paul

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by KShan5[PrFC]

Fine, but can you blame the Pope for trying to stop immoral acts from occuring? By giving out condoms you are in a small part saying that pre-marital sex is okay. And it is therefore his right to try and stop people from allowing it to happen. Even though condoms may save lives, absitence saves more.

I'm starting a new thread in the politics folder about the likes and dislikes of John Paul II's papacy. I'm going to quote you there.

I'll also ask that anyone who is going to do anything in this thread except pay their respects should go there as well.

[Svidrigailov]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

I'm starting a new thread in the politics folder about the likes and dislikes of John Paul II's papacy. I'm going to quote you there.

I'll also ask that anyone who is going to do anything in this thread except pay their respects should go there as well.

Did I miss something? All the original posting said was JP is dead. RIP. Where does it say anything about respect? If anything, I think its disrespectful to just say you're ending discussion on this thread and continuing it on a new one...

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Svidrigailov

Did I miss something? All the original posting said was JP is dead. RIP. Where does it say anything about respect? If anything, I think its disrespectful to just say you're ending discussion on this thread and continuing it on a new one...

It belongs in the politics folder anyway. There's a thread there. There is no reason to continue discussion here. The thread said that the pope is dead, not "what do you guys think of the pope", which is what the thread in the politics folder says.

I don't see why it's disrespectful to discourage threadjacking when something like 6 forum members have already said that they're offended by it.

[KShan5[PrFC]]

Actually I believe the purpose of the politics folder is for:
Political News and Discussions leading up to the 2004 November Elections.
And, well, ut's past 2004, so I don't see how you can say this or anythign else "belongs" there.

[L.O.A.S.]

Originally Posted by Asentzio

I'm really new here, so I don't mind being told when I cross the line of wrong and right on this forum. What bothers me about this thread is that it was created to show respect for a man who has died, who was held by a great number of people to be their leader. Yet, I see now that some are criticizing his past. Don't you think that this belongs in another thread? This all seems disrespectful to the starter of this thread and John Paul II.

Welcome. Good observation. I am not sure what LUDICROUS intended by starting this thread, but I agree that it should be a place to praise and not criticize. What you'll find here is people who like to argue, and have very strong opinions.

[Have At You]

Originally Posted by keith

Well some people find it hard to see the distinction between 'abomination in the eyes of god' and 'hate'.

.... but maybe we are just being over sensitive?

Umm... it's really quite a significant distinction. Hate the sin, love the sinner, and all that.

(Digression: I think people use the word "hate" too freely these days, without really meaning it. Like "hate crimes," which rarely involve actual hate, but rather with treating certain people as if they were less human. Hate is an active personal emotion, much stronger than mere revulsion, dislike, detestation and the like. It's of the same all-encompassing intensity as love, just in a negative way. Hate implies some real personal involvement. If you single someone out to be a victim of crime just because he happens to be a certain color or religion, that's not hate, it's dehumanization. Which is worse.)

Back on topic: When a Catholic refers to a sinful act in terms like "abomination" or the like, it does not mean you hate the person committing the act. It just means that committing such an act puts a lot of distance in the sinner's relationship with God. But all it takes is genuine contrition and God gladly takes you back. Forgiveness is a big part of Catholicism.

[Moonitic]

Thanks to all those who have been tactful, kind, considerate & the like. It does make me feel a little better about who frequents these boards.

Have At You, good point at the end. I can say that I honestly HATE it when people chew with their mouths open. I don't hate the person doing it. I hate the act. We're never going to completely agree with everyone on everything. It's okay to disagree. It's just not okay to be jerks about it, especially just after someone died. I find that tacky. Doesn't matter who dies. It's best to be respectful to those in mourning & "give 'em a break." Kicking someone when they are down shows the type of character one has. This goes for anyone, regardless of religion, sexuality, color, etc. If you want people to respect your view, be respectful as well.

[Svidrigailov]

Originally Posted by Moonitic

Thanks to all those who have been tactful, kind, considerate & the like. It does make me feel a little better about who frequents these boards.

Have At You, good point at the end. I can say that I honestly HATE it when people chew with their mouths open. I don't hate the person doing it. I hate the act. We're never going to completely agree with everyone on everything. It's okay to disagree. It's just not okay to be jerks about it, especially just after someone died. I find that tacky. Doesn't matter who dies. It's best to be respectful to those in mourning & "give 'em a break." Kicking someone when they are down shows the type of character one has. This goes for anyone, regardless of religion, sexuality, color, etc. If you want people to respect your view, be respectful as well.

I see what you're saying about the catholic, and understand the nuances...but I also understand how someone who is gay would be terribly offended by someone who believes their natural predispositions and really, the very core of their being, puts them farther away from God. I think that in the same way that a catholic would be offended if I thought that going to church or taking part in any of catholicism's rituals was morally repugnant. And to tell you the truth, I think it could be argued that contributing to the church that helped Hitler put jews, gypsies and slavic people in concentration camps, and hinders the distribution of contraceptives in africa, is more amoral than consensual sex between two men, and especially more immoral than consensual sex between two women!

[Svidrigailov]

Originally Posted by Moonitic

Thanks to all those who have been tactful, kind, considerate & the like. It does make me feel a little better about who frequents these boards.

Have At You, good point at the end. I can say that I honestly HATE it when people chew with their mouths open. I don't hate the person doing it. I hate the act. We're never going to completely agree with everyone on everything. It's okay to disagree. It's just not okay to be jerks about it, especially just after someone died. I find that tacky. Doesn't matter who dies. It's best to be respectful to those in mourning & "give 'em a break." Kicking someone when they are down shows the type of character one has. This goes for anyone, regardless of religion, sexuality, color, etc. If you want people to respect your view, be respectful as well.

the difference between disliking someone that chews with their mouth open and disliking someone who is gay or religious is very different. The person who chews with their mouth open can be easily taught to chew with their mouth closed unless there is a biological impediment that prevents this. Imagine how heartless it would be to tell someone to close their mouth while they chew if that person had no choice but to chew with their mouth open because of a disfigurement, or because of their genetics. I think it is equally heartless to censure homosexuality, because it asks homosexuals not only to repress a predisposition they didn't choose, but to also negate a very large part of their self.

If the pope was alive today, I would question many of his practices to his face if given the chance. The people who know me would say that I do not skirt issues...since the pope is dead, I do not think it is disrespectful at all to question his more controversial policies.

What has the pope done that has required sacrifice anyway? How has he really helped humanity? From what I can tell, his record is pretty grim...

[Moonitic]

How has the Pope helped humanity, you ask? His record is "pretty grim" you say? You know very little.

On Saturday morning, there were interviews on with people who have met him here in Michigan. One was a black church leader (Catholic church, can't remember what position). He specifically said that Pope John Paul II helped bridged the gap between the black clergy & white clergy in Michigan, also uniting the black & white congregations. Doesn't that help humanity? Bridging the color gap?

I guess not.

How about this: Members of different religious groups (Muslim, Jew, etc.) have stated that he has bridged the gap between the different religions (& different denominations within Christianity). Why, do you suppose, there were so many in attendance at his viewing? Just to be nice, or to thank such a good man? Wouldn't you think that helps humanity?

And surely, even though you disagree, he has done a lot for his own church. Countless people have stood up to say that. Countless people not even IN his church have stood up to speak of what he HAS done...yet you say "his record is pretty grim." No. Only your narrowed perception.

It IS disrespectful to "question his more controversial policies" when the body isn't even in the grave yet. Give people a time to mourn. Stop & think. If someone you dearly loved had just died, & someone started to make hurtful comments about that person & you, wouldn't you feel the least bit upset? And if you say "no," you're a liar, because you KNOW you would.

I'm not Catholic. I disagree with a lot of Catholic beliefs. But I'm not going to sit back & let people act like vultures.

You're welcome to your beliefs & your opinions, but just remember: so is everyone else. It's a question of when & how we present them that makes a difference. Don't talk about others doing things for humanity if you can't act decently toward people when they are at a low point in their lives. Kicking people when they're down is lowdown & dirty.

[latenight]

I disagree with many of the teachings of the Church. Most actually.

That having been said, I admire John Paull II's ability to stand for what he beleived and not water down his ideas because they might not have been popular. I certainly don't do that and admire people with the conviction to not cave in to popular pressures.

I also admire his accessability to people of all faiths, really a milestone in the history of the Papacy. His effect on the world during the cold war will be long remembered.

A great man died the other day, and humanity is direly in need of great men.

[Insipiens]

The world has lost a great man, and the catholic church has lost a great leader. His loss will be felt by people all over the world for a long time.

I am saddened by the comments of a number of people on this thread (as I think he would be) particularly those who seem to suggest that he was too old or too sick to be Pope [which may of course be my interpretation and not intended]. His selflessness in continuing to carry out his duties despite his infirmity is a great symbol both of the dignity and value of the old and of his own dedication and the role of the priest.

requiem aeterna dona eo et lux perpetua luceat eo.

[Svidrigailov]

Originally Posted by Moonitic

How has the Pope helped humanity, you ask? His record is "pretty grim" you say? You know very little.

On Saturday morning, there were interviews on with people who have met him here in Michigan. One was a black church leader (Catholic church, can't remember what position). He specifically said that Pope John Paul II helped bridged the gap between the black clergy & white clergy in Michigan, also uniting the black & white congregations. Doesn't that help humanity? Bridging the color gap?

I guess not.

How about this: Members of different religious groups (Muslim, Jew, etc.) have stated that he has bridged the gap between the different religions (& different denominations within Christianity). Why, do you suppose, there were so many in attendance at his viewing? Just to be nice, or to thank such a good man? Wouldn't you think that helps humanity?

And surely, even though you disagree, he has done a lot for his own church. Countless people have stood up to say that. Countless people not even IN his church have stood up to speak of what he HAS done...yet you say "his record is pretty grim." No. Only your narrowed perception.

It IS disrespectful to "question his more controversial policies" when the body isn't even in the grave yet. Give people a time to mourn. Stop & think. If someone you dearly loved had just died, & someone started to make hurtful comments about that person & you, wouldn't you feel the least bit upset? And if you say "no," you're a liar, because you KNOW you would.

I'm not Catholic. I disagree with a lot of Catholic beliefs. But I'm not going to sit back & let people act like vultures.

You're welcome to your beliefs & your opinions, but just remember: so is everyone else. It's a question of when & how we present them that makes a difference. Don't talk about others doing things for humanity if you can't act decently toward people when they are at a low point in their lives. Kicking people when they're down is lowdown & dirty.

haha...Its amazing how many times a day people tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. My memory dimly recalls (and perhaps improvises on) a quote from Borges that says something to the effect of: "My detractors are as numerous as they are stupid." I am not borges, or have as many detractors as he did, but do feel its a bad *** quote..but anyway,

I am really curious about John Paul's accomplishments...because I feel a lot of people say he had a brilliant papacy and don't really say why. They just assume its obvious...

So what did John Paul really do? I'm curious...because among the positive things I could cite, none of them I think were exceptional, like the founding fathers of the united states were exceptional, or like Churchill was exceptional. So he reached out towards the jewish faith and the muslim faith. Big deal...I think its frankly awful that supposedly caring and tolerant people had not come together before. So he helped bring down communism...while I would mostly find any effort in this direction commendable, I think the way that the soviet republics were taken apart is very problematic; if it had not been, I expect a lot fewer russians and former USSRs to miss the old communist days. The pope also appologized for the crusades, helping hitler, and some other unspeakable acts...these are not difficult or controversial appologies to make.

He also carried on his post, despite being gravely ill. I can admire any person who knows who knows how to suffer with dignity...perhaps he did this bravely. But no more bravely I think than the common man or woman who is ill and carries on...

I think my mother, who loves the John Paul, said people like him because he is the first pope who talked to people and came out on TV. So he is the first pope that benefits from mass communication and mingles with the proles...isn't that what popes are supposed to do anyway? Is this truly a sign of greatness?

As far "kicking someone when they're down," the pope is a public figure. No one should escape criticism, and certainly not if it offends their followers. I'm offended by all sorts of jackasses every day, but rather than try to silence them, or argue that what they say can't even be taken seriously, I discuss with them. The reasons why anyone would "love" or "mourn" a public figure are political, not personal; therefore I do not think it is out of order to be critical of any public figure, even if they're dead.

[ReverseLunge]

Well first of all his title is actually pronounced Poh Pee not Pope and it just means father. Everyone calls him Pope when it is actually pronouced Poh pee.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

Well first of all his title is actually pronounced Poh Pee not Pope and it just means father. Everyone calls him Pope when it is actually pronouced Poh pee.

That's because the word was Anglicized, which happens not only to positions, but to the names of cities, countries, people, etc.

[ReverseLunge]

I can't think of anything more embarrassing then being dressed up as Santa Claus after you die. He deserves better than that.

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2005/WORLD/eu...30.pope.ap.jpg

[Moonitic]

Some people just don't get it.

Oh well. Karma, reaping what one sows, etc. Someday, it'll come back to bite you.

Thanks to the decent people who, despite disagreement, had the maturity to be respectful at such a time.

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by Moonitic

Some people just don't get it.

Oh well. Karma, reaping what one sows, etc. Someday, it'll come back to bite you.

Thanks to the decent people who, despite disagreement, had the maturity to be respectful at such a time.

Thank you for demonstrating classic judeo-middle eastern psychology.

Seems like you don't know what karma means.

Catholicism/Christianity is an insane judeo middle eastern religion that has done a lot of damage. There are millions of worshippers like you who don't have a single original or free thought. Stop worshipping this insane middle eastern daddy god who demonstrates his "truth" through violence and and be free for once.

[BrianH]

Moonitic, mrbiggs, insipid, asentzio: Thanks for a display of good taste and maturity in the midst of the trollposts.

[LUDICROUS]

And I thought "RIP" made my intentions clear

Take this to the politics forum, you bleeding heart liberals!