Is Chivalry Really Dead?

[Lady Riposter]

I've been thinking about this a bit lately and was interested in everyone's opinions. Is chivalry on the decline? Is it dead?

Gone are the days when a gentleman knew which side of a lady to walk on whilst walking down the street, when he would open every door for her, etc.

Now this isn't to say that there are no longer any chivalric men. I know quite a few who display at least some "chivalric tendencies". My boyfriend, for example, makes me wear the jacket from his tuxedo when it's cold and I've only a wrap, and usually opens doors for me. When he took me to dinner for my birthday last week he insisted on pulling my chair out for me. One of my housemates will usually offer me his arm when we're walking down the street and will make sure he's walking on the correct side of me. The vast majority of men I know will still at least open doors for the women, on most occasions.

I have, however, come face-to-face with some very unchivalric behaviour.

During my undergraduate days (I did my undergraduate degree in the U.S.), I was pushing a double door open to exit a lecture theatre at the end of a lecture. I'd pushed the door partway open and was partway through the door when the door was ripped away from me. 'How sweet', I thought, 'he's going to hold it open for me to continue walking through'. But how wrong I was. The guy on the other side of the door then proceeded to push me back into the room so that he could walk through the door himself. There was no rush, he wasn't late, and there was another door...yet he felt compelled to push me out of his way. I realise that this guy is an exception, but I feel like I'm running into more and more exceptions as the days go by.

I realise that I'm a bit (read: very) old-fashioned and traditional and of all the places in the world to be traditional I live in a pretty good place for it. A lot of women don't want every door opened for them, etc. But what's wrong with meeting somewhere in the middle? Is chivalry on the decline? Girls, are there things you wish that more guys would do or wouldn't do? Guys what do you think about this? Do the girls you know appreciate things like this?

Just curious to see what everyone thinks....

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by Lady Riposter

During my undergraduate days (I did my undergraduate degree in the U.S.), I was pushing a double door open to exit a lecture theatre at the end of a lecture. I'd pushed the door partway open and was partway through the door when the door was ripped away from me. 'How sweet', I thought, 'he's going to hold it open for me to continue walking through'. But how wrong I was. The guy on the other side of the door then proceeded to push me back into the room so that he could walk through the door himself. There was no rush, he wasn't late, and there was another door...yet he felt compelled to push me out of his way. I realise that this guy is an exception, but I feel like I'm running into more and more exceptions as the days go by.

You're not describing the death of Chivalry, you're describing the birth of an a**hole.

As for the death of chivalry...would you rather have voting rights and the chance to work or gentlemen holding the door for you with a deep bow?

[epee1]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

You're not describing the death of Chivalry, you're describing the birth of an a**hole.

As for the death of chivalry...would you rather have voting rights and the chance to work or gentlemen holding the door for you with a deep bow?

Why can't we have both? After all, most men (at least in my aquaintance) expect their wives/signigicant others to make dinner, do the housework and laundry even if she works.

[the doc]

what's this, women in wanting both ways shocker???

that's the problem with equal opportunities, you have to lose some of the nice stuff too.

i'll hold doors open for anyone if it is convienient and corteous, but since woman wanted to be treated as men's equals then no special treatment from me.

only fair, i think

[Peach]

I dunno about chivalry, but I always considered it common courtesy to hold the door open for the next person, whatEVER gender they are. Some guys will insist on holding it for me even if it means I have to stop holding it open for them and come around the door, which can be silly and awkward.

I teach young boys, and I make sure they know that they should hold the door open for each other and for adults, and (this is a tough one) that gentlemen do not wear hats indoors . Apparently, a few have parents who do not realize socializing children increases their chances of surviving to adulthood

I did notice twenty years or so ago that people seem to have lost the concept of giving up a seat on the bus to a pregnant woman or an elderly person.

[Maeve_Mari]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

You're not describing the death of Chivalry, you're describing the birth of an a**hole.

As for the death of chivalry...would you rather have voting rights and the chance to work or gentlemen holding the door for you with a deep bow?

I don't think these are mutually exclusive privileges! But, I also don't believe that holding a door open, waiting patiently as a slow walker strolls, or a respectful nod in greeting need be considered "chivalrous."

What is expected is a return to politeness and respect of one's fellow beings. Male or female there is a general genteelness still required and expected.

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by epee1

Why can't we have both? After all, most men (at least in my aquaintance) expect their wives/signigicant others to make dinner, do the housework and laundry even if she works.

Time to sit down and have a family talk about sharing the responsibilities.

As a side note, I hold the door for men and women...

[Maeve_Mari]

Originally Posted by Peach

I did notice twenty years or so ago that people seem to have lost the concept of giving up a seat on the bus to a pregnant woman or an elderly person.

I tested this once - just to see what would happen. While out touring the city I had my camera under my zipped up coat and realized that I could look quite possibly pregnant if I stood leaning back slightly. I was riding the subways around the city and on each trip I tried to look as tired and pregnant as I could. I'd have to say about 50% of the time someone - always a man - would get up and offer his seat to me. Never did a woman get up, and never did a child stand up.

[Peach]

As a side note, I always found it amusing when the right to equal pay for equal work and such like fripperies are considered commensurate with having a hat tipped to you. They aren't the same category of privilege

Door holding is a vestige of formal etiquette, which may have had its origins in Victorian conceptions of gender roles but lingers on as a code of courteous behavior, not as a recognition of protected inferior status or vulnerability. We don't shake hands in order to demonstrate lack of weapons any more, either.

[Maeve_Mari]

Originally Posted by the doc

what's this, women in wanting both ways shocker???

that's the problem with equal opportunities, you have to lose some of the nice stuff too.

i'll hold doors open for anyone if it is convienient and corteous, but since woman wanted to be treated as men's equals then no special treatment from me.

only fair, i think

Only fair. You think? So instead of women being treated equally - how exactly would you value the treatment of them, if not equally? Would the little woman walk a bit behind you as demonstration of your less than equal treatment? Would being treated not equally mean sleeping on a mat on the floor instead of in a bed? How exactly do you treat another human being if not equally?

I'm having a hard time trying to figure out just what I would have to give up to get you to hold a door open for me.

Tell me again. What is 'wanting it both ways?" What does that mean to you? You can be treated equally or you can be treated like dirt? That just doesn't make any sense at all.

[Peach]

Originally Posted by Maeve_Mari

I'd have to say about 50% of the time someone - always a man - would get up and offer his seat to me. Never did a woman get up, and never did a child stand up.

Well, when I was *really* pregnant, the only people who ever gave me their seats (and it was consistent, all the time) were middle-aged black women.

[Go? Fencing?]

A friend of mine once said, "Chivalry is dead, except for toasters."


I'm still not sure exactly what it means, but it was profound. ;D

[grotto]

When I was dating in college I had chivalry beaten out of me by womyn who would loudly pontificate at their own ability to open doors, seat themselve etc etc. I honestly feel women killed chivalry as guys being simple (ohh she doesn't like this, I had better not do it or risk going home alone..... again ) will adapt their behavior pretty quickly. This doesn't excuse the boor who pushed through the door or any other numerous things that are pure bad form, but when you have to second guess a simple thing like holding a door.....

[latenight]

Originally Posted by Peach

I teach young boys, and I make sure they know that they should hold the door open for each other and for adults, and (this is a tough one) that gentlemen do not wear hats indoors . Apparently, a few have parents who do not realize socializing children increases their chances of surviving to adulthood
.

Hell just get them to walk on the right handed side of the hall would be a plus...........when did that basic social skill get lost?

[Zilverzmurfen]

I'm not exactly spoilt with that kind of treatment - having chairs dragged out for me etc. I think I'd just feel a bit akward and stupid to have someone doing these kind of things to me.

(I believe the english term would be that it'd feel foreign to me. )

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Lady Riposter

I've been thinking about this a bit lately and was interested in everyone's opinions. Is chivalry on the decline? Is it dead?

Gone are the days when a gentleman knew which side of a lady to walk on whilst walking down the street, when he would open every door for her, etc.

Now this isn't to say that there are no longer any chivalric men. I know quite a few who display at least some "chivalric tendencies". My boyfriend, for example, makes me wear the jacket from his tuxedo when it's cold and I've only a wrap, and usually opens doors for me. When he took me to dinner for my birthday last week he insisted on pulling my chair out for me. One of my housemates will usually offer me his arm when we're walking down the street and will make sure he's walking on the correct side of me. The vast majority of men I know will still at least open doors for the women, on most occasions.

I have, however, come face-to-face with some very unchivalric behaviour.

During my undergraduate days (I did my undergraduate degree in the U.S.), I was pushing a double door open to exit a lecture theatre at the end of a lecture. I'd pushed the door partway open and was partway through the door when the door was ripped away from me. 'How sweet', I thought, 'he's going to hold it open for me to continue walking through'. But how wrong I was. The guy on the other side of the door then proceeded to push me back into the room so that he could walk through the door himself. There was no rush, he wasn't late, and there was another door...yet he felt compelled to push me out of his way. I realise that this guy is an exception, but I feel like I'm running into more and more exceptions as the days go by.

I realise that I'm a bit (read: very) old-fashioned and traditional and of all the places in the world to be traditional I live in a pretty good place for it. A lot of women don't want every door opened for them, etc. But what's wrong with meeting somewhere in the middle? Is chivalry on the decline? Girls, are there things you wish that more guys would do or wouldn't do? Guys what do you think about this? Do the girls you know appreciate things like this?

Just curious to see what everyone thinks....

If by chivalry, you mean old world manners and ettiqutte, then yes. I don't subscribe to behaving by the same manners and rules that people did during the middle ages, or when knights roamed about wearing armor and rescuing damsels in distress.

That romantic view of the past is fantasy. People were people, even then. Some were nice, some had manners, some were just plain selfish and rude.

One of the differences for the change in behavior is women themselves. I've dated girls that loved to look at me as a knight in shining armor, and wanted to be treated as the weak helpless female. I've dated girls that felt stupid if they had to borrow a coat because they didn't have the foresight to dress appropiately. The latter always made more sense to me...

Another reason is that many women view such behaviour condescending, as was alluded to earlier.

That said, I believe in being considerate and polite to everybody, as many other people do. I open doors for either gender, I avoid talking loudly on a cellphone in public, I lend warm clothes to a friend who's cold (especially if I've got a spare), etc...

[Cipher]

I practice quite a few of the traditional niceties, from stoicly acquiescing to women and the elderly to proper table manners and maintaining appropriate conversation. It reflects well upon a person to display a good sense of etiquette. It also makes you more welcome in nearly all social situations and others appreciate the respect it indicates you have for them. The benefits of "chivalry" in modern society do not end with the people that are directly affected (i.e. the woman for whom the door is held), it actually benefits the person performing the act more. In my opinion, the act of holding the door is such a minor inconvenience that it is more than worth it for the appreciation the person shows for it. Just my opinion though.

[Larrison]

Hmm... good question, and discussion here.

I practice reasonably 'chivalric' behavior -- I hold doors open for people, offer to help carry if someone is carrying something heavy, stand up in subways/ trains/ buses etc if a female needs a seat, etc.

I also wash the dishes after dinner (I hate cooking, but I figure I should do my fair share), help out in public charitable events, attempt to keep polite and properly spoken in conversations, etc.

But.. I've also been chewed out by females who make a big point of "I can get out of the car by myself, thank you!" and "Why are you offering to buy dinner?" and "Don't you dare condesend to me, you male ##!!$$$" (that was on a date, when I attempted to hold her chair at a restaurant on an abbreviated first and last date....). And I've also met the opposite -- the girl who won't get out of the car until you come around and open it for her, and who will stand and wait until you open the door to anything for her, and who expects you to pay for dinner and all expenses, and to be at her beck and call.... and offers nothing in return, not even good conversation. I have to confess a feeling of "being used as a chump" by a few of these types.

So.. is Chivalry dead? No.. but some people are trying to drive it down, I have to admit.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

meh... there are lots of feminists out there who ***** at you when you do 'chivalrous' things. I only do chivalrous things to women that I'm sure won't take offense at it... and its hard to be sure! women ruined chivalry for themselves when they started getting all itchy *****y about how they're just as strong as a man and all that crap. For the record, the last time I pulled out a chair for a woman, she told me she could pull one out for herself, and then promptly pulled out a different chair, and sat down in it, completely ingnoring the chair I pulled out for her.