Is Chivalry Really Dead?

[Cipher]

Concerning the women who are impolite about men "degrading" them with chivalry, they are on the same level with the guy that pushed through the door past Lady Riposter. They obviously lack the manners to interact with people who hold different ideas than their own. Personally, I will always err toward being too polite. Being rude without due cause is a horrible trait in a person, and one that I will not tolerate in myself, regardless of how others react to me.

[Peach]

It's interesting how angry some people get over these things--both male and female--and how vindictive. I'm fascinated to hear that some guys have decided to treat all women rudely because some women have treated them rudely. My stance is there may be jerks of both sexes, but that doesn't mean I have to be one myself.

I will say I have occasionally met the occasional man who managed to make "chivalry" seem condescending, controlling, and unnerving. A couple of them have been fencers. They both found women who were looking for a man to tell them what to do, and when they found the women they stopped coming to fencing because face it, fencing isn't what It Used To Be In The Golden Age, is it?

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally Posted by Peach

Well, when I was *really* pregnant, the only people who ever gave me their seats (and it was consistent, all the time) were middle-aged black women.

When my wife was pregnant, no one would give up a seat, no one. This held for both Sweden and China - long trip during 1st pregancy (Unless, you count me letting her take the last available seat, but that is not chivalry, just protecting a genetic investment.) In China, I would see late 9months women going on to the bus, in obvious discomfort. No one budged, and my wife told me to be still and sit so that I would not make a spectacle of myself.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[EpeeConvert]

Chivalry didnt just die, women killed it. well at least for me, i was a pretty nice guy. always paid, did nice things, bought flowers for no reason, held the door and such. all it did was have 3 out of the last 4 girls cheat on me multiple times. i apologize to all the female fencers on teh board but it was your kind that killed chivalry, not us.

[Coup de Grace]

This is a very interesting topic. In my opinion, chivalry is not dead although many of the traditional manifestations of it have vanished (standing when ladies enter a room...opening a car door, for example). I was raised on the East Coast (Washington DC) by southern parents with the expectation of performing chivalric duties. I did and still do. I moved my family from Los Angeles here to Texas two years ago. Even in gang infested LA, I have seen gang members give up their seat on the train and open doors for women of all ages. My six year old son is at the stage where he likes to open doors for people. I see it in other little boys as well. Somebody is teaching these young boys the simple value of consideration by opening a door for a stranger.

In my opinion, in the USA, we are paying the price for an "emasculated male" syndrome that has plagued the country for decades.You see the Hollywood example in the male lead characters in many sitcoms over the years. The seventies saw the influx of women leaving the home and carving professional careers for themselves. This was long overdue and the country was ripe for it. But along the way something happened to the extent where common courtesy from a man to a woman was seen as a form of harrassment. This is not to minimized the creeps that were harrassing women. I mean receiving an evil, cold stare from a woman after you open a door for her (which happened to me). I remember offering my umbrella to a woman in the middle of a downpour in LA. She glared at me like I was going to accost her.

The result is many men become paralyzed and do nothing out of fear of upsetting a woman or being accused of harassment. I choose to continue to open doors and offer to help and will train my son to do the same. Whether it is appreciated or not is not my concern.

[LordTofuDog-jnr]

The reason that chivalry is dead is because of the feminist movements that took place decadses ago. Women got angry at men for anything that might imply they're not capable of fending for themselves. (see : opening doors, offering help with what might normally be a something men did)

When a 16 year old like I is abused for offering their seat to a woman when on a train or tram it makes me think that perhaps men are not to blame. Chew on that for a little while and see what you think.

Oh, and on a related note. a crappy "news" show did a thing on this two or so days ago and they did interviews with men who've been called "male chauvanistic pig" for being chivilrous. (sp?) - Just something to mention.

[Larrison]

Originally Posted by Coup de Grace

[ ... ] The seventies saw the influx of women leaving the home and carving professional careers for themselves. This was long overdue and the country was ripe for it. But along the way something happened to the extent where common courtesy from a man to a woman was seen as a form of harrassment. [ ... ]

Eh! I think you hit it there. I've complimented a woman at work on how they look (and I compliment guys too, if they come into work looking particularly sharp) with

[me] "May I say, you certainly are dressed nicely today!"

[she] "What the ***K is that supposed to mean? What the ***K do I normally look like?" (Glares at me and stamps off...)

Complimenting someone on how well they are dressed, is grounds for a sexual harrassment lawsuit today... Now, why the heck would I open the door for them?

But yes, I will continue to open doors, stand up in crowded trains/ buses, and let a female through the door first.... But geeze !

[Soldier]

Yeah, some women kind of kill chivalry. But I think that's a distinct minority.

First and foremost, I believe in Service Before Self. I'll hold doors, offer coats (or any other overgarment) if it's cold, et cetera, to anybody. I'll give a seat up even to a perfectly fit man (unless perhaps I'm particularly fatigued). It's just the way things are done.

But, I'll still do it just a bit more, for girls. Just this evening, I quickly swapped chairs around with the one next to me (where a lady was sitting, incidentally my group commander), since it was kind of falling apart, and a bit later, gave my overshirt to a (female) friend who was cold. Even though I had to throw it back at her, several times, before she would accept it. Stubborn people, bah.

But...no, chivalry ain't dead yet.

[Pauli]

I don't think chivalry is dead. But often, in many ways, since it's a lot less of a "daily" attitude nowadays, people are suprized by it.
Looking at my dad, I definitely grew up with it and next to the fact that I personally very much appreciate it, it also does show respect. But then again, there's a difference between "honest" chivalry, somebody who has it in his blood, and the "set up" one, meaning somebody who forces himself to do it because he wants to appear in a certain way.

Really, Chivalry doesn't come isolated. To me, it comes with manners, the way words are chosen or the language is used, somebody's posture, somebody's attitude. Distinction comes to my mind.

We live in quite a selfish society. The "I" is always on first place. Taking other people into consideration, respecting other people starts disappearing more and more. This also because of the mix of cultures, often the forced mix of cultures. With that, I think, chivalry does disappear a bit. It's regrettable.

Now, of course, the very strong feminism doesn't really invite chivalry either. The women who know it all, who close to NEED to show they can do everything themselfs, who won't have others (men) help them. It's what keeps men from even taking the effort of going that little step further. (I am no man, but I could imagine that's how you feel when your help is being turned down in a way of: do you think, because I'm a woman, I can't do this by myself???) Urgh!

I just hope, it won't entirely disappear. I'm sure there are many, many women who very much appreciate that little charming extra effort shown on their behalf. I do......

[Peach]

When my future husband first asked me to dance, I blew cigar smoke at him and said, "No." We'll be married 29 years in May.

[Pauli]

Originally Posted by Peach

When my future husband first asked me to dance, I blew cigar smoke at him and said, "No." We'll be married 29 years in May.

The smoke must've made you look like one hell of a woman then!!!

[Peach]

Originally Posted by Pauli

The smoke must've made you look like one hell of a woman then!!!

Didn't need the smoke back then. Now when it would do me some good I've given up smoking

[Insipiens]

on the subject of giving up your seat to a pregnant woman - I do this as soon as soon as I see such a person - on the tube in London (especially in the summer ) I would consider it cruelty not to.

But should I offer my seat to any women standing? I think to be "chivalrous"I ought to. That would at least take away my fear of embarrassment at offering my seat to a woman who is just a bit overweight and unfortunately dressed rather than slightly pregnant.

really chivalry as a concept involves more than good manners - I believe it involves the notion of virtuous suffering (even in a mild way) in protection of those weaker than ourselves.

[Maeve_Mari]

Originally Posted by Insipiens

really chivalry as a concept involves more than good manners - I believe it involves the notion of virtuous suffering (even in a mild way) in protection of those weaker than ourselves.

Right there. That is the approach to "chilvalry" that has produced the negative perception and feelings among women on the issue. It's not the act of being polite and kind to a woman - holding a door or a chair - that has caused this confused signal, it's the belief that it must be done only because she as a woman she is weak and unable to perform on her own. Everyone enjoys consideration and caring, both men and women appreciate that. But no one wants an immediate judgement put upon them just because of their gender.

[ThatReallyHurt]

Just a quick question. Take a peek at this statement:

"If X puts their mind to it, they can do Y."

Substitute any kind of person or individual person for X. Substitute any action for Y.

Do you think this argument is valid for all values of X and Y? Why or why not?

(By the way, I'm not trying to start a war here, I'm just looking for some insight.)

[Soldier]

Of course it isn't. Much as I may put my mind to it, I'll never be a powerlifter. I'm just not built for it physically. I'm sure further reflection could generate a dozen more incompatible values of X and Y.

[lochinvar]

Chivalry didn't die, it just went out of fashion.

[Peach]

The concept of the "weaker sex" makes a statistical error. Just because the peak of one curve and the peak of another don't overlap, that doesn't mean there isn't substantial overlap throughout the rest of the curve. For instance, there is a well-known truism that men have a better spatial sense than women; this is true only statistically, but not in many specific cases--for instance, my husband has to memorize his routes by landmarks, while I navigate by knowing where I am in relation to a firm sense of the compass, my destination, and my location on a mental map. Statistically speaking, men have larger heads than women. My hat size is 7 7/8. I lift more in the weight room than quite a number of men. This does not mean I could win an open weightlifting competition. However, when I ran a marathon I finished ahead of a large number of men.

There are some firm biological differences relating to function. Women can have babies and are substantially more likely to be able to feed them without bottles, of course, but many do not have babies or feed them breast milk--and many cannot.

This is the problem with seeing chivalry as protection of the weak--in a society where childbirth is optional and unlikely to kill the mother, and where physical strength (and the necessity of protection) neither determines a person's work role nor the paternity of offspring, the statistical and functional differences are much less relevant.

Which is why I just hold doors open if I'm the first one through, and why I let other people do it and thank them politely, and why I sometimes get annoyed when a would-be gentleman tries to grab something out of my hands to carry it for me when I'm doing just fine with it, but I'll cheerfully let someone help me out if it doesn't substantially inconvenience me.

[AndrastVitesse]

A song about chivalry


I'm Finding It Harder To Be A Gentleman

by the White Stripes

Well I'm finding it harder
to be a gentleman every day
all the manners that I've been taught
have slowly died away
but if I held the door open for you
It would make your day

You think that I care
about me and only me
when every single girl needs help
climbing up a tree
well I know it don't take much
to satisfy me

Maybe it's whatever's in my mind
that's distracting me
but if i could find emotion
to stimulate devotion
well then you'd see

Well I'm finding it hard to say
that I need you twenty times a day
I feel comfortable so baby why
don't you feel the same?
have a doctor come and visit us
and tell us which one is sane

Well I never said I wouldn't
Throw my jacket in the mud for you
but my father gave it to me so
maybe I should carry you
then you said
"You almost dropped me"
so then I did
and I got mud on my shoes

[Boo Boo]

Chivalry may be a bit over the top, but good manners are essential and a sign of respect to others. Helping people out (like standing so a pregnant woman can stand or picking up some things knocked over by a old lady who wouldn't find bending over to pick them back up very easy - something I did recently) often doesn't cost us much, but may bring great benefit to someone else.

I would similarly help a guy with his leg in plaster, a man carrying a baby or an old man...

I find that treating (many) people with respect often gets you respect back and puts them in a good mood. Wouldn't you rather have a have an exchange of amicable nods and a smile with a stranger, than barge past each other and both of you leave thinking "idiot!"...

I have no time for people who don't act with respect towards me: I have healthy self-esteem.

We are civilised human beings, we should act like it, since the world is what we make of it...

Boo