04-01-2005, 04:01 AM
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#1 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: UK
Posts: 148
| Foil timings to change in Sept
A coach who just came back from Junior/Cadet champs said the timings are going to change to 8ms contact time with the lockout unchanged in Sept...
Whether thats in the UK only, FIE events only I have no idea...
Move in the right direction anyway. Fairly predictable change though as the FIE was never going to change it back to the way it was.
But will 8ms overcome the microbreak problems or would it just reduce the probability of a light not coming up. | 
|  | | And now for this message... |
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04-01-2005, 04:53 AM
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#2 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 707
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by ChubbyHubby A coach who just came back from Junior/Cadet champs said the timings are going to change to 8ms contact time with the lockout unchanged in Sept...
Whether thats in the UK only, FIE events only I have no idea...
Move in the right direction anyway. Fairly predictable change though as the FIE was never going to change it back to the way it was.
But will 8ms overcome the microbreak problems or would it just reduce the probability of a light not coming up. | This is good news but done without torough testing could be worse :
1) I predict foilists will develop very soon a technique of flicked counter attack and escape.
2) The lockout will still be to favorable to defense, remise, counter attacks.
3) How will the young children learn the convention with such a short lockout
(specially for them) ?
They will get bad habits of contorsions, protections from the beginning.
The lockout must put be back to a longer value.
__________________
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Just forget these broken foil test timings !
Use clear visor masks for fishing,
and video to film your mother-in-law.
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04-01-2005, 07:27 AM
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#3 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: UK
Posts: 784
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Alan 2) The lockout will still be to favorable to defense, remise, counter attacks. | Not really - the thing that is preventing most "sensible" hits from registering currently is the contact time and not the lock-out... you have to be doing some HUGE preparation or a move at the wrong distance to be blocked out by the block out time...
Boo | |
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04-01-2005, 08:18 AM
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#4 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 707
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Boo Boo Not really - the thing that is preventing most "sensible" hits from registering currently is the contact time and not the lock-out... you have to be doing some HUGE preparation or a move at the wrong distance to be blocked out by the block out time...
Boo |
Well i don't believe so. It is not the experience of many foilists too.
In fact i don't see why the broken debounce time would favorize remises or counter attacks.
__________________
.
Just forget these broken foil test timings !
Use clear visor masks for fishing,
and video to film your mother-in-law.
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04-01-2005, 08:34 AM
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#5 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: UK
Posts: 784
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Alan In fact i don't see why the broken debounce time would favorize remises or counter attacks. | It is just that it is harder to land a repost or attack (with the right contact time, without glancing off or over bending) than it is to land a straight remise or counter attack...
Most of the counters I land are because of the contact time and not the block out time...
The experienced fencers thatI know do not grumble about the block out time, but the contact time.
Boo | |
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04-01-2005, 09:26 AM
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#6 | | Admin
Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 4,617
| Alan - I don't think that you thought the post through. What is being reported is something that you would really want. You seem now to just be against any change whatsoever which isn't a very defensible position.
Craig Quote: |
Originally Posted by Alan This is good news but done without torough testing could be worse :
1) I predict foilists will develop very soon a technique of flicked counter attack and escape.
2) The lockout will still be to favorable to defense, remise, counter attacks.
3) How will the young children learn the convention with such a short lockout
(specially for them) ?
They will get bad habits of contorsions, protections from the beginning.
The lockout must put be back to a longer value. | | |
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04-01-2005, 09:29 AM
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#7 | | Admin
Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 4,617
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Alan Well i don't believe so. It is not the experience of many foilists too.
In fact i don't see why the broken debounce time would favorize remises or counter attacks. | The debounce time "favored" counter-attacks because if one fencer sees the attack coming and then rushes to close distance, then the point will bounce off sooner (within the 15ms), resulting in no light for the attacker. The counter-attacker, who is controlling the speed of closure, has an advantage in being better able to set their point.
At least that's what the observations communicated have talked about.
This change is in line with what other federations have signalled that they would be in support of, so it should be seen as progress towards getting it right.
Of course, I'll believe it when it happens. | |
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04-01-2005, 09:59 AM
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#8 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 707
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Craig Alan - I don't think that you thought the post through. What is being reported is something that you would really want. You seem now to just be against any change whatsoever which isn't a very defensible position.
Craig | 1) Sorry but i have *always* said that both timings should not be changed
and the problems of ROW solved by refereing.
2) I have never been against changes if they are approved by a majority of foilists, foil trainers etc ... I will always be against autocratic changes made by some people, the more so as they don't give the real reasons behind
the changes they impose.
3) I will always be against changes which are against the personal freedom of fencers. For instance if some want to use clear visors, they are welcome but i don't see why anybody should be forced to use one, because that doesn't change the match.
(And i don't think tv spectators care about the face, the sound or the smell
of fencers ...)
4) i will always be against changes which spoil foil in sake of telegeny.
5) These broken test timings were supposed to improve foil and we seen
their horrific effects. Are we going to play this comedy again ???
The new new timings should be toroughly tested before being used in official events and in the mean time the current official timings should be the rule.
But yes it is positive that some foilists and federations have taken their
responsability to force King René to listen to them.
And i hope they will continue.
.
__________________
.
Just forget these broken foil test timings !
Use clear visor masks for fishing,
and video to film your mother-in-law.
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04-01-2005, 10:05 AM
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#9 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 707
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by ChubbyHubby A coach who just came back from Junior/Cadet champs said the timings are going to change to 8ms contact time with the lockout unchanged in Sept...
Whether thats in the UK only, FIE events only I have no idea...
Move in the right direction anyway. Fairly predictable change though as the FIE was never going to change it back to the way it was.
But will 8ms overcome the microbreak problems or would it just reduce the probability of a light not coming up. | By the way this seems like a rumor for the moment.
When will we have a confirmation ?
__________________
.
Just forget these broken foil test timings !
Use clear visor masks for fishing,
and video to film your mother-in-law.
| |
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04-01-2005, 10:36 AM
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#10 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Posts: 304
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Alan This is good news but done without torough testing could be worse :
1) I predict foilists will develop very soon a technique of flicked counter attack and escape.
2) The lockout will still be to favorable to defense, remise, counter attacks.
3) How will the young children learn the convention with such a short lockout
(specially for them) ?
They will get bad habits of contorsions, protections from the beginning.
The lockout must put be back to a longer value. | This is *wonderful* news! I don't see how it could possibly be *worse*. Quote: |
1) I predict foilists will develop very soon a technique of flicked counter attack and escape
| -- But this always worked, if you hadn't started your lunge yet it was stop hit in tempo, and if you had started your lunge any decent lunge will finish in well under 300ms so you can only escape by avoiding the hit completely. Quote: |
2) The lockout will still be to favorable to defense, remise, counter attacks.
| -- The only place the 300ms lockout will make a difference is if you make a compound riposte after getting hit with a remise, and not always then either. 300ms is a long time. Quote:
3) How will the young children learn the convention with such a short lockout
(specially for them) ?
They will get bad habits of contorsions, protections from the beginning.
| -- This is a valid point, and I would suppose it applies to any beginning fencer who starts fencing a lot of electric, though an adult would be more likely to listen to a coach who explains that it's a bad habit that won't work against better fencers and should be avoided like the plague, but a lot of them don't listen either. Quote: |
The new new timings should be toroughly tested before being used in official events and in the mean time the current official timings should be the rule.
| Well, I would agree with you there. But according to DHCjr, if I understood him correctly, the debounce timings *were* thoroughly tested and found to not work correctly at anything over 10ms, which implies that it *doesn't* hurt straight thrusts at 8ms.
If this is actually the case, and 8ms is instituted, I think it will make foil worth fencing again. In which case I would jump for joy because the 15ms debounce time makes it unwatchable crap and no fun to fence at all.
I still agree that we should go back to the old debounce time while more testing is done though.
If this turns out to be an April Fools Day joke I'm going to have someone hunted down and killed.
gary hayenga | 
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04-01-2005, 10:40 AM
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#11 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: London
Posts: 495
| We had the April fools' day joke discussion on the UK forum thread and ChubbyHubby maintained it is not a joke.
__________________
I caught this morning morning’s minion, king-
dom of daylight’s dauphin, dapple-dawn-drawn Falcon, in his riding
Of the rolling level underneath him steady air, and striding
High there, how he rung upon the rein of a wimpling wing
In his ecstasy! then off, off forth on swing,
As a skate’s heel sweeps smooth on a bow-bend: the hurl and gliding
Rebuffed the big wind. My heart in hiding
Stirred for a bird,—the achieve of; the mastery of the thing! | |
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04-01-2005, 10:43 AM
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#12 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: UK
Posts: 148
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Alan By the way this seems like a rumor for the moment.
When will we have a confirmation ? | I think it is more than rumour, more like it just hasn't been announced yet. No idea when there will be a confirmation.
It's not unexpected anyway (the change to 8ms). There is no way the FIE is going to change it back to the way it was.
Most fencers object to the new 15ms contact time because it added an element of randomness to whether hits come up or not, and not particularly flicks being taken away (it hasn't, you can land flicks if done properly with chances of it not coming up about the same as a straight hit not coming up).
If I came up with device that 99.999% accurately registers thrusts but no flicks, most fencers would adapt after a little grumbling - as long as it is at least 99.999%.
Notice how none of the top fencers you often quote are complaining they hate the new timings because they can't flick. They are just saying valid touches are not being recorded correctly.
Most fencers seem okay with the new lockout time and of the opinion they can live with it although it would be better if it were a *little* longer.
By "Most fencers" I mean competitive fencers in the UK that I've spoken to.
And no, I am not a Romankov worshipper, I am a march and flick fencer.
I do not support the change from the "official" timings, but that's just the way it is. I am not going to complain about it, just going to figure out new ways to take advantage of new rules (be it chest protectors/man-plates or whatever). | |
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04-01-2005, 10:47 AM
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#13 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 707
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by ChubbyHubby
I do not support the change from the "official" timings, but that's just the way it is. I am not going to complain about it, just going to figure out new ways to take advantage of new rules (be it chest protectors/man-plates or whatever).
| Fortunately some foilists and federations have not adopted your "that's the way it is" attitude and seem to have their voice listened to.
__________________
.
Just forget these broken foil test timings !
Use clear visor masks for fishing,
and video to film your mother-in-law.
| |
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04-01-2005, 10:50 AM
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#14 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: UK
Posts: 784
| Thank you to Craig and Gary and Chubby who have posted what I meant to say (and said very badly) earlier in the thread... Quote: |
Originally Posted by garyhayenga If this turns out to be an April Fools Day joke I'm going to have someone hunted down and killed. | No it isn't a joke.
If it is, will hunt him down and kill him myself (not difficult, since I live with him...) 
Boo | |
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04-01-2005, 10:54 AM
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#15 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: UK
Posts: 784
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Alan Fortunately some foilists and federations have not adopted your "that's the way it is" attitude and seem to have their voice listened to. | Just because Chubby gets on with it and fences with it, doesn't mean that he is completely apathetic about it - he has constructively commented on a number of discussions about it (mainly on the UK forum).
Those who don't "get on with it" risk suffering in competition...
My concern, with the new timings, is (as soon as it is made official and we know when the British Federation is introducing it and the current competitive season is over...) getting our box updated to the new contact time - so that I can train on it...
Boo | |
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04-01-2005, 10:54 AM
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#16 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 707
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Boo Boo Thank you to Craig and Gary and Chubby who have posted what I meant to say (and said very badly) earlier in the thread...
Boo | Considering the horrific effects of the broken test timings, only testing in competitions (non official i hope) will show the real effects of the new test timings.
__________________
.
Just forget these broken foil test timings !
Use clear visor masks for fishing,
and video to film your mother-in-law.
| |
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04-01-2005, 10:59 AM
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#17 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: UK
Posts: 148
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Alan Fortunately some foilists and federations have not adopted your "that's the way it is" attitude and seem to have their voice listened to. | And good for them. All I am saying is I am a competitor, I focus on my competing and leave polictics to those who are better at it. (No offence, but that doesn't include you..  )
The FIE is determined to change foil, it's better that federations talk about how it is best changed in a constructive way rather than "any change is bad". This they are doing.
Yes, the testing is f***** up and not lead by engineers, but what are you going to do? camp outside the FIE office and throw eggs at RR? (hey, maybe you can try that!)  | |
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04-01-2005, 11:08 AM
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#18 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 707
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by ChubbyHubby And good for them. All I am saying is I am a competitor, I focus on my competing and leave polictics to those who are better at it. (No offence, but that doesn't include you.. )
The FIE is determined to change foil, it's better that federations talk about how it is best changed in a constructive way rather than "any change is bad". This they are doing.
Yes, the testing is f***** up and not lead by engineers, but what are you going to do? camp outside the FIE office and throw eggs at RR? (hey, maybe you can try that!) | Well if the foilists and foil trainers against the broken test timings (and i am sure they are a majority) express loudly and in different medias, it can make a difference.
If they organize petitions and protests, it will be even more efficient.
"The FIE is determined to change foil" : may be but in the first place the FIE
should listen to the fencers. Foilists are not dumber than the general population (except me) so any benefic and well explained change should and can receive the approval of them.
If the change is imposed by the top with no good reasons (or worse bad reasons) it is a good thing if it is not accepted.
__________________
.
Just forget these broken foil test timings !
Use clear visor masks for fishing,
and video to film your mother-in-law.
| |
| | |
04-01-2005, 11:13 AM
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#19 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: UK
Posts: 148
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Alan Well if the foilists and foil trainers against the broken test timings (and i am sure they are a majority) express loudly and in different medias, it can make a difference.
If they organize petitions and protests, it will be even more efficient.
"The FIE is determined to change foil" : may be but in the first place the FIE
should listen to the fencers. Foilists are not dumber than the general population (except me) so any benefic and well explained change should and can receive the approval of them.
If the change is imposed by the top with no good reasons (or worse bad reasons) it is a good thing if it is not accepted. | I haven't disagreed with anything you have said above.
"express loudly and in different medias, it can make a difference."
Yep. I agree except it should be "express loudly and constructively", not "loudly, incoherently and insanely" like a stuck record...  | |
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04-01-2005, 11:20 AM
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#20 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 707
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by ChubbyHubby I haven't disagreed with anything you have said above.
"express loudly and in different medias, it can make a difference."
Yep. I agree except it should be "express loudly and constructively", not "loudly, incoherently and insanely" like a stuck record... | My expression does not count anyway ...
__________________
.
Just forget these broken foil test timings !
Use clear visor masks for fishing,
and video to film your mother-in-law.
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