PCC's

[FencerInUS]

anyone going to PCC's this year?

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F.I.US.
Parry, THEN riposte
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[edew]

Yes. There is a list of entered competitors on the PCSFencing.com website (linked, that is, to the PCC2001 site).

[Purple Fencer]

I would if it weren't for the fact that the men's foil (my best weapon, such as it is) is the same day as my 10th wedding anniversary! ARGH!

Hmmmm...fencing or having the honeymoon Sandy and I never had.

Attack from the anniversary, NO attempt to parry. Touche anniversary.

Have a good time.

p.s. What sucks is that this was the first year I actually placed high enough at the qualifiers to go! And in two weapons! (sabre being the other)

Oh well...see ya at Summer Nats

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Sam Signorelli -- Boldly going forward...'cause I can't find reverse!

[arcon]

[ 10-19-2001: Message edited by: arcon ]

[Peach]

I'm fencing my section championships the same weekend my daughter is supposed to come home from college . . . my husband is so accustomed to the situation that he's planning to drive up and back 6 1/2 hours each way and get her by himself.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally posted by arcon:
Purple your suppose to get her something for
that 10th anniversary. I cant remember ! i never made it that far.............
..............arcon........the divorced

Well...I kinda DID. She had a breast reduction last Friday. Recovering nicely, thank you. Sure helps her breathing and posture. No more spinal curvature or back pain.

She MIGHT even be tempted to take up some physical activity other than weight training in the future. Guess which one I'm pushing for? Personally, I see her as an epeeist, but I might be wrong.

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Sam Signorelli -- Boldly going forward...'cause I can't find reverse!

[attila]

Sam

That is more than any of us need to know.

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"Kill the men, save the women, and by the gods, do not spill the wine"

[Stryder]

Sam, just so you don't get in trouble...

10th Anniversary:
Traditional gift: Tin/Aluminum
Contemporary gift: Diamond Jewelry

Want to guess who it was that rewrote the "Traditional" list?

Sam, try the "I'm more of a traditional guy" line and let me know how it works out.

[d8m2k]

I am more than a bit miffed about a disturbing trend in PCC's.

The competition costs more than an NAC. In addition, the venues leave a lot to be desired. The current one does not have enough room for equipment bags! The last one was in a tent with the worst floor I have ever been on.

I can say that I will not be attending.

[edew]

Yes, they do cost more than NACs, but the price has held steady since the 1999 PCCs in Las Vegas. Last year's venue was the same as the 1998 venue, although the 1998 venue used some weird padding (which worked) and had more room.

We in California (primary supply of fencers for the PCCs) are suffering under our own success. Our economic successes have caused convention space to sky rocket, thus making it difficult to get reasonable prices for venues. One option which will be brought up in the PCS meeting is whether to use Las Vegas as a permanent PCCs location.

I think that would be a rather severe process, and may be detrimental in the long term (what if Las Vegas' convention space prices go boom?), I think it's certainly a good idea to have Las Vegas as a default location in the case that an adequate facility is not located within a specified time (say, 2 years ahead).

There are other costs associated with a LV location: bringing in referees, shipping equipment, and getting fencers to fly out to LV. There are 500+ fencers within a driving distance of Redwood City for this year's PCCs. There aren't 500+ fencers within a driving distance (under 80 miles) from Las Vegas.

[d8m2k]

Yes, cost have been steady for a while. And I haven't gone. It is usually poorly run, with bad venue, and the tournament means very little, unless Div 1a is your thing.

I understand the reason for the cost, but it just isn't worth it for me.

[veeco]

The other thing I don't understand either is why do we have to run events on a Friday... This is weird, esp. knowing that the some of biggest events are going to be on the friday (ME and WF).

I heard Richard King complaining saying that if not enough people registered, the event would be a loss for the division. Yet the events that could bring in the most people are on Friday when people usually go to work.

Just my 0.02$

[d8m2k]

Veeco,

Spoken like a true epee fencer.
Sadly epee always get the shaft in that regard, even at NAC's.

First thing in the morning, Friday.
Logistically, it makes sense. There is less equipment for the armorers to check, and it takes the longest to fence out. So that's why it usually is the first event.

PCC's, however, changes often. Frank likes to rotate the starting times so that every weapon gets the shaft at some point.

As for the division making money, well, that is reason I am not attending. Maybe economic sanctions will make the organizers realize that changes need to made.
Heh.

[Cutter]

Women's Saber is also on Friday. It sucks but I will be there as I want to qualify for Div 1A at Nationals.

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Cutter
"It's just a flesh wound."

[Clean Touch]

Granted, convention floor prices are going through the roof, but can you imagine how many would plunk down the dough to go to HAWAII for PCCs? Talk about people getting the shaft: what about our Hawaiian fencers? Ouch!

Perhaps an alternative to premier convention locales would be local colleges? UC Davis hosted the PCCs some years ago and they have a HUGE gym floor. Perhaps there aren't some other colleges with similar facilites that we (the Pacific Coast Sectioners) could use?

My immediate question for THIS year's PCCs is about th efloor space: if we can't keep our equipment at strip-side, what are we supposed to do, run out to the hall everytimne we need a towel or a spare weapon? And what about spectators? My wife wants to come watch with our 1 1/2 year-old son: do I need to invest in a couple of masks for them so they can watch in close quarters?

Sheesh, the prices are high, but you'd think we could get a decent venue for our money! Welcome to California...

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Est-ce que l'attaque etait bon? Mais Oui!!

(BTW, yes I will be there, AND at the Nationals! WOOHOO!)

[This message has been edited by Clean Touch (edited 04-17-2001).]

[edew]

We run events on Friday as well because we also run team events. I believe the PCCs is the only sectional championships in the nation with team events. Correct me if I'm wrong. Certainly, the PCCs have the coolest perpetual trophies for men's epee and women's foil (that trophy of Ralph Faulkner is about 300 friggin' pounds -- must have been cast out of adamantium or something).

Of course, it used to be, when there was just women's foil, to have four events. Even then, they ran events from Friday as well. But then, two events on Friday, two individual events and two team events on Saturday, and then two team events on Sunday.

Then, at some PCCs, they included the Jr PCCs as well (just the U-19 portion, I believe). That didn't go over very well.

Colleges are wise to the needs for facilities and are charging competitive (read: exorbitant) rates. Also, colleges have fewer amenities, like tables and chairs and risers and skirting around the tables and raise stink if you screw up the floor. Stanford might be a good place to hold it, but the Stanford folks don't want anything to do with it.

Red Morton isn't the best place in the Bay Area. I have no idea how Richard King found that location. When I first saw the floor plan, I was dismayed, to say the least. Since I wasn't involved with the siting of the location, I had no say on whether that place was a good choice.

As for bringing equipment in. The fact is, people will do as they please (as was done in many other events...), and equipment will be brought into the facility much like any other event.

As for d8m2k's comment about divisions making money off the event, the division itself makes very little money at the end, and sometimes take a loss if the attendance is not high enough. The various clubs which help out in setting up the strips and such receive a sizable amount of money for helping out. If there is no profit motive, you can basically see all fencing competitions go to pot.

Our Bay Cup events, for example, make money for the host clubs. The arrangements are not all perfect, but fencers attend, and everyone's pretty much happy. The money goes back to the fencing community, which is better than having it dissipate into the greater economy. And that's the same with money from PCCs: it goes back into the fencing community in terms of new equipment, better staffed clubs, etc.

[d8m2k]

Edew,
My only concern about the money is that I am not getting my money's worth. And of course the organizers of a tournament need to make money. If the organizing commitee is not making money on the tournament, then perhaps they should address the problems as to why.

Events on Fridays
Poor venues
The tournament means very little if you are not into div 1a (USFA issue)
And usually, poorly run

For example, if the "Bay Cup" was not making money, would you change the format so that it did?
I thought so.
If PCC's is making money, and no one (but me) is complaining, then continue. PCC's won't miss me, it hasn't in the past in won't in the future.

[edew]

If you haven't been to the past PCCs, how do you know they are poorly run, or have bad venues? I know, everyone complains, but no one really does anything about it, probably because it wasn't that poorly run, or the venue wasn't really that bad.

Events on Fridays have been the rule for practically forever. At one time (and again now), the PCC was the chief route for many people to qualify for the Nationals. So the "value" of the event for people is very close to the value of a Nationals. Thus, people don't mind taking a Friday off to compete. Last year, Men's Foil was held on Friday, and I took a day off from work to compete on Friday. No biggie.

People have various reasons to compete in PCCs. One reason is that being the Pacific Coast Champion is a respectable honorific. There have been plenty of very good fencers who never became Pacific Coast Champion, even though they competed in the events during their peak years. So the event itself is a worthy event. Brushing it off as just a qualifier to Div IA is an excuse, not a reason, to not attend. It's like people who say, "Eh, the NACs. It's not a World Cup." Then concerning the world cups, "Eh, it's not the Olympics." Well, put up or shut up, right?

As for the running part, I've been to numerous PCCs. There was only one "poorly" run one, as far as fencers are concerned. That one was at Stanford when we ran to around 9:00PM. All other ones, as far as being a fencer was concerned, seemed well run. That doesn't mean it was actually well run. For all I know, they messed up all the forms at the end, didn't submit financial statements to the PCS, lost people in the shuffle, and so on. But the fencers and the referees were happy.

I was involved in hosting the 1996 PCCs in San Jose. We had problems afterwards, but for the most part, the fencers were happy for a well-run event. The next year was in Reno, and that was even better. The year after (1998) was in Sacramento in the big tent, and people liked everything except that the finals were delayed a bit. The floor was covered with a special padding, on top of which were the strips, so it was well padded for the knees and legs. 1999 was in Las Vegas, and aside from the power problem (the Venetian hotel people didn't know how to dim one room's lights without dimming the other's) and the static electricity, it was a great tournament. 2000 was all right, but the lack of nice flooring was a major (and justified) gripe. But the event ran smoothly.

So which events were poorly run? I can't seem to remember any.

[d8m2k]

I have been to past PCC's. There are always numerous problems with seeding and never enough refs. And this causes large lag time between bouts.
And for me, poorly run is a small gripe. Very few tournaments are efficiently run, NAC's and world cups included.
As for venues, Sacramento sucked, both times. The floor was treacherous both times(my joints recall no padding), the tent was nasty, as I had said earlier the only good thing was the emu burger stand right next door. I also seem to recall the venue shrinking as time went on.

The "value" of the event depends on the goal of the person fencing. I don't value Div. 1a. Many people do. Fine by me. I don't find the prestige factor of PCC's worth it. Sometimes it is a very difficult tournament with strong fencers, I respect the winner. Other times it is merely whoever decided they had the time, and then I don't consider it a prestigious event.

Thus my original claim "It's no worth the money they are asking me to pay." This is a comparative thing. If NAC's were twice the current amount, the current price of PCC's would seem reasonable. However, PCC's is charging more, for an event is not the same "value" as an NAC (to me). And for the amount of money I would be paying if I were going I get a crappy venue, and risk a low-level turn-out. It just isn't worth it, to me. You may thing it is money and time well spent. That is your choice. I have too little free time/money to spend on the event with work, national events, world cups, and my personal life.

If things change, I will change my opinion.

And I am doing something about it. Economic Sanctions. I don't give PCC's my money. If enough people do it, it will be forced to change. If I am the only one to do it, PCC's succeeds, I don't feel like I wasted my time/money and everyone is happy. What more could you want?

[This message has been edited by d8m2k (edited 04-17-2001).]

[edew]

I think taking a pro-active stance and explaining to the PCS officers what you think should be done to improve the event would be more beneficial for the event, the sport, and you. Economic sanctions don't tell the seller (i.e., the PCC organizer or the PCS officers) what the problem(s) is(are). They're no wiser by your lack of feedback about what is not working. There are plenty of other people who aren't attending, and because of other reasons completely un-related to your claims of disorganization and lack of value.

It helps no one for you to keep your gripes pent-up and not explaining it to the officers. Now, if the officers do nothing with your complaints, then you can make a case then that you will apply economic sanctions. Otherwise, you're just one person who decided not to attend the event and no one knows nor cares why you didn't. Doesn't sound like it'll change anything using such bullheaded methods.