What's next?

[esskreemr]

Taking all bets.....

With the ballooning energy crisis about to hit all facets of our lives (higher gas prices will inevitably lead to paying more for just about everything), the Federalis decided that it was much more important to spend their time in a fruitless campaign against Social Security and passing federal legislation that usurps the Seperation of Powers.

My question is, what's next? What smokescreen will be raised next to "pull the wool" over America's eyes? What happened to conservation? What happened to increasing federal funding for Alternative energy, what happened to federally mandated fuel efficiency? Instead, we get a "Don't worry, we'll be drilling in ANWR in 5-10 years." Sounds like too little too late.

So any takers as to what the next "diversion" will be, and will it happen before or after we are shelling out $3.00 per gallon (yes I know the Europeans are already putting out more, just remember you buy in liters, oops I mean litres, and we buy in gallons), $5.00? $7.00?

Is the real problem the oil supply or is it a system that tries to perpetuate dependence on oil?

p.s. Did you know that the price for a gallon of gas in Venezuela is 14 cents? In China they pay about $1.50. Why? Government owns the companies and keeps the prices low.

[darius]

Government owns the companies and keeps the prices low.

Oh, so you must be one of those commun...er...terrorists I keep reading about. How anti-American. If the government nationalized essential industries, think of all the poor billionaires who will be out of work!

darius

[Maeve_Mari]

Originally Posted by darius

Oh, so you must be one of those commun...er...terrorists I keep reading about. How anti-American. If the government nationalized essential industries, think of all the poor billionaires who will be out of work!

darius

Including the errrr.... the ... errr his ah errr ... the family... errr

[lochinvar]

Oh, for the lova...will you people please stop whinging?

Adjusted for inflation, we are paying less for gasoline today than we ever did in history.

Don't believe it? Check the figures. (BTW, I'm old enough to remember the dates listed):

In 1960, the price of gasoline was $.35/gallon.
2005 equivalent? $2.27/gallon--about what we're paying now.

In 1974, when the "energy crisis" actually got underway, the price of gas skyrocketed to $.95/gallon!
2005 equivalent? $3.70/gallon.

In the late '70s-early '80s, prices hovered around $1.25/gallon.
2005 equivalent? (Using 1980 as base year) $2.91/gallon.

Honestly, don't we have enough substantive things to indict the government for without sniveling about the price of gasoline?

[Gav]

In US equivalent terms if I were to drive a car I would pay in the region of $5.5 - 6 a gallon and you guys complain about $3!

[Inquartata]

You live in a socialist paradise, Gav.

[scrapinpeg]

The next diversion? We've got enough going on now. Moon shot, no wait, manned Mars landings! Steroids, the bane of all that is good and holy! The UN is corrupt -- I am shocked, shocked to learn of it! There's genocide in Africa and nobody is doing anything for the first time in history! All of a sudden there are red and blue states, it's a civil war a-brewing! They're going to drill in Alaska! Politicians are suddenly found to be nothing more than unprincipled party hacks! The wrong people have nukes! The small brown peoples of the world are taking all the industry! There's lewdness on the three TV channels that didn't already have it! Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, here, look at this!

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Gav

In US equivalent terms if I were to drive a car I would pay in the region of $5.5 - 6 a gallon and you guys complain about $3!

Yeah, but Britain is alot smaller than the U.S. You guys can just walk.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by lochinvar

Adjusted for inflation, we are paying less for gasoline today than we ever did in history.

Don't believe it? Check the figures. (BTW, I'm old enough to remember the dates listed):

Just to be annoying pedantical, currently gas prices are averaging $2.17. In January 2001 the average was $1.323. Taking into account the rise in CPI (source: US Dept. of Labor) that works out to an adjusted figure of $1.45. Sounds like we're paying more today than 4 years ago (BTW, I'm old enough to remember the date listed :) ).

Absolutes like "ever" are dangerous words.

-B :)

[lochinvar]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Absolutes like "ever" are dangerous words.

You are correct, sir. I am reminded. I will try not to make sweeping generalizations in future.

However, that doesn't change the essential point I was trying to make, which is: Gasoline prices are not horribly burdensome, they have remained reletively flat in real dollars over the last 20 years or so, are in fact no higher in real dollars than they were in 1960, and are not on track to be an impending crisis unless the price goes to something like $4/gallon or more.

The price of gasoline as a political issue is a straw man.

[oiuyt]

Not to mention gasoline prices aren't actually that important in most people's spending habits.

People talk about buying a hybrid car to save money. The Honda Civic (just an example, it was the first that came to mind that had both hybrid and traditional versions) costs about $4-5000 more in hybrid form. That gains you 9 mpg on highways (38mpg vs 47 mpg). Driving 12,000 miles/year that's about 60 gallons of gasoline/year. Or ~$120/year.

Now I'm not saying hybrid cars are a bad idea, or that I wouldn't consider purchasing one myself. But the cost savings are NOT the over-riding concern there. Gas prices just aren't high.

Not to mention that people will spend $30,000 on a car which doesn't provide a particularly notable increase in utility over the car they could have spent $15,000 on (or, for that matter, the 12-year old car (worth ~$1-2000 according to Edmunds.com) with 37,000 miles (yes, this is the actual mileage, don't ask) that I was recently given to replace the 7-year old car (worth less than the repair costs to make it worth continuing to drive) with 127,000 miles that I bought new for $11,000).

So, despite my post pointing out the recent increase in gasoline prices (in real terms), I agree with Loch. Gasoline just isn't expensive currently and further increases similar to what we have been experiencing are unlikely to change the behavior patterns of many Americans.

-B :)

[Cipher]

Gas prices are just one of those things that people go nuts over. I know people that will go out of their way to get gas that is 2 or 3 cents cheaper per gallon. Even filling my suburban with 40 gallons, the difference would be a whopping $.80 to $1.20.

[esskreemr]

Fuel prices effect alot more than just the amount that each person pays when they fill up at the local gas station. If high prices are maintained other costs go up as well since most goods will be transported by something that requires gas at some point.

In addition, our military still runs on petroleum distillates, so the costs of bombing country after country will increase as well. I would hate that we wouldn't be able to afford to bomb Syria or Iran just because the price of petro went up a couple of buck per gallon. In addition, the costs of subjugating....err I mean occupying...umm, crap what are we calling it right now? Are we merely monitoring the elections? Oh well... the costs of our Persian Excursion (ala John Stewart) might skyrocket at a much quicker pace than the current astronomical figures. I mean, if gas prices continue to go up, we might have to take a breather from war. Particularly since Haliburton charges us about $20.00 a gallon.

[grotto]

interesting topic guys. I know when we bought our explorer 2yrs ago, it cost us about $25.00 to fill it up. Now it costs us $40.00 We end up at the filling station once a week. so lets say I am over exagerating and the difference is only $10. 10x52=$520 not counting vacation or travel fill ups. Now our second car is more "fuel efficient" so the increase is about 1/2 of the explorer. so that adds another $260. So we are at $780 more than 2 yrs ago. We are not even at the peak driving time of summer. So lets say overall that it is $800 of discresionary dollars that are now gone. that equals a deck, or a new appliance, or a week-end golf vacation that a middle class consumer is not going to take. Multiply that across the general population you have quite a large amount being sucked out of the "economy"

I'm sure Inq or the other economists here can give a better discription, but higher gas prices are not good for the economy from what i read / heard.

[lochinvar]

Increases in the cost of raw materials is never good for the economy.

But as I was trying to point out, we've weathered this particular storm before--particularly during the Energy Embargo, when it was blowing much, much harder.

We adapt and move on. And while we're considering the money being "sucked out of the economy", we might consider where that money is going--to oil company shareholders and employees, who now have more discretionary income to purchase things.

The money economy is a closed system; what goes out in one place comes back in somewhere else.

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by lochinvar

The money economy is a closed system; what goes out in one place comes back in somewhere else.

If you're speaking on a global scale perhaps. What about the local economy? The money is sucked out, at what point does it return? How much of it goes to King Habib's new gold Rolex? How much of it goes to fund a mudrasa that churns out the next generation of Holy Warriors?

[grotto]

Originally Posted by lochinvar

Increases in the cost of raw materials is never good for the economy.

But as I was trying to point out, we've weathered this particular storm before--particularly during the Energy Embargo, when it was blowing much, much harder.

We adapt and move on. And while we're considering the money being "sucked out of the economy", we might consider where that money is going--to oil company shareholders and employees, who now have more discretionary income to purchase things.

The money economy is a closed system; what goes out in one place comes back in somewhere else.

ok granted, but if I remember correctly the ecomony was in the dumps during the oil embargo, Interest rates were in the teens, and GM was laying off workers in droves.... (forgive the specific example, I was a just a kid in Michigan...) The standing US president lost the election because of these factors, which were effected by the oil embargo.

From a wage standpoint: money goes into corporations but typically does not come out. (unless you are a shareholder)

[Soldier]

Originally Posted by grotto

(forgive the specific example, I was a just a kid in Michigan...)

Hehe...you were actually alive back then...!