"Fencing Masters' Responsibility" articlce in Escrime International

[garyhayenga]

Originally Posted by DanInMI

As for being "extremely irrational with (your) choice of actions." People like that have always been hard to fence. Ann lost a pool bout two weeks ago to a D rated fencer because of that. It doesn't have anything to do with the new timings, it is just hard to fence against someone when you can not predict what they will do. That doesn't mean that it has become more productive to fence like a spaz just because doing so sometimes works.

You have your head firmly stuck in the sand.

Ann lost a pool bout for the first time in six years (at some World Cup in 1999) solely because of the new timings.

Multiple fast straight thrusts that landed solidly enough to leave little round welts bounced off with no light. Same with the ripostes.

Why you continue to insist on spreading disinformation puzzles and apalls me.

The fact, as attested by DHCjr, is that all four national federations that tested the new debounce timings and the SEMI Commission of the FIE recommended that the debounce time be no more than 10ms, to avoid hurting straight thrusts. Rene Roche ignored them in what I can only imagine to be delusions of Papal infallability and railroaded a 15ms debounce time through the FIE Congress. The technical people all *knew* that a 15ms debounce time wouldn't work! And it doesn't.

All the fencers who are successful with the new debounce timing hate it.

You need to ask yourself why that is.

gary hayenga

[Jarentz]

Originally Posted by garyhayenga

Ann lost a pool bout for the first time in six years (at some World Cup in 1999) solely because of the new timings.

How is it that in these stories it’s always the champion fencer’s touches that don’t score. You never hear some newbie fencer’s account about how all his hits bounced off of Golubitsky
“man I’d have beat him for sure if it wasn’t for that darned box!” ;-D
It’s impossible to lose a bout to a scoring machine.
Because the machine is the same for both fencers, even if the new timings are screwed up, they’re enforced equally on both fencers. Unless maybe one of them is wearing a chest protector, they’re both equal.

[MdA]

Originally Posted by SmokeyTheCat263

In the new edition of Escrime International, I read "The Fencing Masters' Responsibility", by Ian Pop. Essentially, Ioan Pop is arguing that the new timings in foil are a good thing by returning foil to the original spirit. This is done as fencers are forced to extent, no more back flicks etc etc...

Well, it is almost three and a half years later. Have we coaches met our responsibility to the sport?

We are heading into the next Olympics after almost 4 years with the new timings. Have we done a good job? Have we adapted?

Have our foil and saber fencers returned to the "original spirit"? This Olympics should be the measure...of course there is no Men's Foil team event so there will be less foil events to evaluate.

At least there will be less chance that they will have to fire any refs for cheating....and to that point has refereeing improved with video replay?

[noodle]

Originally Posted by MdA

Well, it is almost three and a half years later. Have we coaches met our responsibility to the sport?

We are heading into the next Olympics after almost 4 years with the new timings. Have we done a good job? Have we adapted?

Have our foil and saber fencers returned to the "original spirit"? This Olympics should be the measure...of course there is no Men's Foil team event so there will be less foil events to evaluate.

At least there will be less chance that they will have to fire any refs for cheating....and to that point has refereeing improved with video replay?

i think saber adjusted accordingly, and the game isn't *that* much different.

foil is still weird and different, with the "tricks" that betray the "original spirit" having evolved from back flicks into the current form of chest protectors, wiggling and fast remises. people have adjusted, but that adjustment took a long time.

i think the question will be, in another 10 years, will these changes show that they've corrupted the game of foil? there are a huge number of lower level fencers that are finding success with the wiggly, poor technique, trick-based tactics in addition to pure athleticism. will that slowly ooze into the higher levels, as the tactics evolve and the older, currently dominating fencers phase out?

i think that the video replay alone has made it so that less refs will venture out into the territory of cheating. refereeing and the game as a whole might have improved a bit, but only on the top levels.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by MdA

Have our foil and saber fencers returned to the "original spirit"?

I don't think so.

Needless to say, the current style of fencing is better than it was immediately after the new timings were introduced. Fencers have confidence in their attacks again, and we're seeing a fairly large amount of "correct" actions-like parry ripostes or distance rather than arbitrary squirming.

But at the same time, a very large percentage of foil actions now end with one fencer having RoW and the other squirming violently to try to dodge the point. Then foil becomes just a game of pin the tail on the donkey, with the outcome of the touch simply decided by whether or not the attacking fencer manages to get a light on despite the squirms. This is more and more true the lower the level of fencing is, and the closer the fencers are in skill.

And even though many fencers have become more confident in their attacks, there's no question in my mind that the net effect of the new timings is to punish the attacker. Foil bouts take forevever now, especially women's foil. It's very rare to see fencers do long attacks with any sort of success against fencers of equal skill, and most actions are not much longer than an advance-lunge. There are also many off-target hits, because it's better to hit off-target than to miss entirely.

And finally, covering target (especially with the mask) and turning the back are becoming very important penalties. I've seen both enforced more strictly at the local level, and I've seen signs of it at the international level as well. And when it isn't enforced, the fencer who's getting away with the action has a HUGE advantage. It's nearly impossible to hit someone when they're covering target with their mask as long as they have a decent sense of timing and flank and shoulder defense. Overall, referees are doing a good job of handing out penalties appropriately, but I think that this is not a good thing for fencing. It's rare in a sport that by moving in a fairly natural manner (bending over and putting your head down) you can gain such a huge advantage.

[MdA]

Originally Posted by noodle

i think saber adjusted accordingly, and the game isn't *that* much different.

foil is still weird and different, with the "tricks" that betray the "original spirit" having evolved from back flicks into the current form of chest protectors, wiggling and fast remises. people have adjusted, but that adjustment took a long time.

i think that the video replay alone has made it so that less refs will venture out into the territory of cheating. refereeing and the game as a whole might have improved a bit, but only on the top levels.

I agree that sabre isn't that much different from my perspective but i know at a higher level there are things you just don't do anymore...like a compound riposte.

The first two years were painful in foil. I remember the first few NACs when half the mens foil fencers showed up with plastic chest protectors...and then the discussions between the fencers....I'll take mine off if you take off yours.

Then we went through the rise of the counterattack phase.

Now things seem to be settling in but it is still weird..ducking...turning...covering with the mask.

One overall observation: the size of elite foil fencers seems to be shrinking. Gone are the days of the overpowering Sean McLains, Stefano Cerionis, ...they all seem to be more medium-small sized now.

As for video replay...as you say only on the World Cup level...if anything I think we are still suffering with domestic foil refs being inconsistent

[Hauptman]

Pardon this ignorant epee fencer, but I haven't fenced foil since long before these timing changes:

What is it about the timing change that encourages all this squirming and dodging of the point?

I don't see any of this squirming and dodging in epee and certainly the lock-out time in epee has always been shorter than foil. What am I missing here?

[KD5MDK]

Debounce time.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

Debounce time.

i'd say primarily debounce time, but also the shorter lockout time also played a part. basically, anything to make them take longer to hit or make it harder to hit. if i could gyrate around so much that they need to take an extra second to make sure their attack will land solidly, thats an extra second i could be using to lock them out.

[KD5MDK]

If you had a 1-5ms debounce time, they wouldn't need to make sure the attack will land solidly.