FIE Magazine Article on New Foil Timings

[rdinap]

In the Technical Director's Column of the most recent edition of Esrime Int'l Magazine, Ioan Pop seems to say that the FIE sees no need to change the timings from the current 13-15 milliseconds. The timing changes have achieved what the FIE thought when first adopting them: eliminating the flick and requiring attacks with an etended arm. According to Mr Pop the best fencers have already adapted to the new timings and the rest, if talented enough, will follow. Fencing Masters will simply have to change their training methods (if they have not already done so).

It also appears that the only change they will consider is to require plastic chest protectors to be covered with an extra layer of foam to absorb the touch rather than repel it.

[CvilleFencer]

Sounds like it is time for more protests from the top fencers! I would say we should do something at summer nationals but no one would care...

[Alan]

Originally Posted by rdinap

In the Technical Director's Column of the most recent edition of Esrime Int'l Magazine, Ioan Pop seems to say that the FIE sees no need to change the timings from the current 13-15 milliseconds. The timing changes have achieved what the FIE thought when first adopting them: eliminating the flick and requiring attacks with an etended arm. According to Mr Pop the best fencers have already adapted to the new timings and the rest, if talented enough, will follow. Fencing Masters will simply have to change their training methods (if they have not already done so).

It also appears that the only change they will consider is to require plastic chest protectors to be covered with an extra layer of foam to absorb the touch rather than repel it.

This is pathetic !!!

Why the hell should flicks disappear ??

Because some Romankov nostalgics have decided so ?

[Alan]

Which issue of FIE magazine are talking about ???

This is an old article before 3 national federations protested against the broken test timings...

After that King René himself admitted that the test timings were broken.

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by Alan

Why the hell should flicks disappear ??

Because some Romankov nostalgics have decided so ?

ok, i'm not going to jump on your back like everyone else apparently has but i'm just really curious...you seem to be pro-flick can't you survive without the flick?? i know its a cool move, one that i can't do but like to see and would have liked to learn had i not switched to epee, but seriously. there are so many other options.

you do realize that flicking can be stopped pretty much 100% of the time by the top foilists. you have to use deeper methods to beat those guys (i.e. timing, better compound attacks, strategy, etc..). those methods are much more fun and rewarding to learn in the end (i'm not assuming that you aren't aware of this already). even without flicks there's still ssssoooooo much more to foil fencing that no ridiculously absurd timing changes can destroy.
i don't see why plain old good strategy, timing, distance and application of good technique can't win in the end.

i fenced with the new timings and since i don't see anything drastically different; sure there were hits that didn't go off but sh*t happens. i've seen foil tournaments and the final results tableau routinely had the usual suspects finishing high so what the heck. i still get my *** kicked by the B fencers only now they're not flicking the hell out of me. they're doing other stuff that i'm more fascinated with actually, thats why they're B's. the game does seem a bit slower and methodical but what the heck is wrong with that??

again, i'm not attacking you; its just that you come off as someone who's now pissed because they can't take advantage of the people that never knew how to parry the flick.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by glowstix

ok, i'm not going to jump on your back like everyone else apparently has but i'm just really curious...you seem to be pro-flick can't you survive without the flick?? i know its a cool move, one that i can't do but like to see and would have liked to learn had i not switched to epee, but seriously. there are so many other options.

you do realize that flicking can be stopped pretty much 100% of the time by the top foilists. you have to use deeper methods to beat those guys (i.e. timing, better compound attacks, strategy, etc..). those methods are much more fun and rewarding to learn in the end (i'm not assuming that you aren't aware of this already). even without flicks there's still ssssoooooo much more to foil fencing that no ridiculously absurd timing changes can destroy.
i don't see why plain old good strategy, timing, distance and application of good technique can't win in the end.

i fenced with the new timings and since i don't see anything drastically different; sure there were hits that didn't go off but sh*t happens. i've seen foil tournaments and the final results tableau routinely had the usual suspects finishing high so what the heck. i still get my *** kicked by the B fencers only now they're not flicking the hell out of me. they're doing other stuff that i'm more fascinated with actually, thats why they're B's. the game does seem a bit slower and methodical but what the heck is wrong with that??

again, i'm not attacking you; its just that you come off as someone who's now pissed because they can't take advantage of the people that never knew how to parry the flick.

It's not a question of people : i have always pretended that the best foilists will stay the best foilists.

I am saying that they will have less pleasure and the spectators too.

And most important : let the majority of foilists decide ...

[rdinap]

Originally Posted by Alan

Which issue of FIE magazine are talking about ???

This is an old article before 3 national federations protested against the broken test timings...

After that King René himself admitted that the test timings were broken.

The publication date is 12/04, but it just came in the mail yesterday (3/26).

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Alan

This is pathetic !!!

Why the hell should flicks disappear ??

Because some Romankov nostalgics have decided so ?

This is a very old debate, and I'm sure that very few on this forum want to get into it. Suffice it to say that more people than a few Romankov nostalgics want to get rid of the flick, for a variety of reasons. Myself, for one.

[Moses]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

This is a very old debate, and I'm sure that very few on this forum want to get into it. Suffice it to say that more people than a few Romankov nostalgics want to get rid of the flick, for a variety of reasons. Myself, for one.

I, pour deux.

-Da Mose

[edew]

Originally Posted by rdinap

The publication date is 12/04, but it just came in the mail yesterday (3/26).

12/04 publication date means the article was written sometime in October or so, way before the CIP, Seoul, Shanghai, Venice, and other Senior WC foil events.

I doubt the author would stand by the claims in the article now, after all the heat the new timings has generated.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

This is a very old debate, and I'm sure that very few on this forum want to get into it. Suffice it to say that more people than a few Romankov nostalgics want to get rid of the flick, for a variety of reasons. Myself, for one.

Your opinion is highly respectable. And i do respect it.

I only can hope what King René and you respect the opinion of the majority of foilists who are clearly against these broken foil test timings.


If a majority of foilists were for these broken test timings, i would quit foil
and try to learn Foilepee.

[Alan]

I would add that this magazine is the latest place to look into
to get an independant view from King René :


Just have a look at Roch Magazine to have an idea :

http://www.fie.ch/download/magazine...Escrime_n50.pdf

20 photos of his majesty, his name printed 61 times in 48 pages.

And he is so happy to see small countries coming (small by number of fencers). Coming to serve him ?

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by Alan

Your opinion is highly respectable. And i do respect it.

I only can hope what King René and you respect the opinion of the majority of foilists who are clearly against these broken foil test timings.


If a majority of foilists were for these broken test timings, i would quit foil
and try to learn Foilepee.

Alan and others may be against flicking, does not mean they are for the timing. Being against the flick does not mean they are for the new timing mandated by Rene Roch. I and many other Armorers are against the timing and against the flick for safety reasons. The SEMI commission did recomend new timing, but not the new timing that is in use. They recommended 10ms as the longest to achieve the objective without hurting straight attacks. A certain president felt it was not long enough and sent 15ms to the congress.

Considering that each and everyone of these little countries with few fencers who are getting money specifically because of Rene Roch are as powerful in the FIE Congress as France, Italy, Germany, Russia, Great Britain, the U.S. or any major fencing center, I would agree he would love them.

[garyhayenga]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

The SEMI commission did recomend new timing, but not the new timing that is in use. They recommended 10ms as the longest to achieve the objective without hurting straight attacks. A certain president felt it was not long enough and sent 15ms to the congress.

Oh my god. You mean the SEMI commission knew 15ms wouldn't work and formally told Roche that by recommending 10ms? And he ignored them?

So does 10ms actually fix the fast straight thrusts don't go off a lot of the time problem? Or does it just reduce it? For example is the chest-plate still a problem?

I'm just stunned. I assumed that they hadn't done adequate testing before forcing the new debounce timing on everyone. But they *did* do it and *knew* it wouldn't work and *said* so?!!

Oh my god.

gary hayenga

[DHCJr]

There were separate tests in Russia, Italy, Germany, the U.S. and I believe Great Britain and each independently recommended 10ms as the maximum to not affect straight attacks. I was not involved with any of this and I may be wrong about Great Britain and there may have been others. This is what I was told by someone who was involved and they gave the countries in passing.

What is happening should never have happened, but should have been expected. Both the SEMI and Medical Commissions were against the Visor Masks, but there was one person for them. Since everything must go through him, to be reported to the congress, his vote is the only one that counts.

His having the FIE pay to bring in all these new countries has swayed the balance. It doesn’t matter what most fencers want. Remember, a country with less than 100 fencers has as much power as one with over 100,000 fencers and they can be swayed more easily.

[Alan]

May be a solution to these broken test timings problem would be to have

2 separate events :

Foil with the current official timings

Foilepee with the test timings.

The goal of Foilepee being to be more telegenic
it could be used to implement all the other "ideas" of king René :

- passivity rule
- no off target lamps
- clear visors so that the spectators can see the fencers' faces
- refereing with video
...

- a small microphone under the masks so that the spectators hear the fencers' breath (smell detectors are not yet availaible)

- pists of 4 meters instead of 14 (largely enough for Foilepee)

- clear vests for women (to compete with beach volley)

So fencing would have 4 events in the Olympics :-)

[JackSparrow]

Or revert to the old timings but implement a refereeing solution. As you all know, I have been defending the new timings even though I am by no means oblivious to their flaws. My attitude was set under the old timings when I fenced sussex house fencer, David Mansour. He was rushing forward with his arm bent back as far as it would go. I stuck my arm out hitting him square in the chest. At the last minute (way after my extension), he would whip his blade over hitting me on the back. The ref's verdict, right of way to Mansour. My verdict, it can't be. The rules state that right of way is dictated by the arm extending, not your legs. Therefore, if two fencers are keeping distance with each other, with one fencer advancing and the other retreating, if they both then simultaneously lunge at each other there is no priority and the attacks cannot be seperated. How many referees do we know who would incorrectly give the right of way to the fencer who is advancing. Now if Mansour was exploiting this new interpretation of the rules then Sanzo takes it to a whole new level. In effect it is this corruption of the rules which caused the FIE to take action.

When FIE president Rene Roch was elected, he said that his plans for the future of our sport was "simplicity and drama". To me this sounds more in line with the essence of the old timings. For me, the solution is to revert back to them but revolutionize the way that foil is presided over. This would include the need to have your point threatening the target (a point in the air should no longer be deemed to be a threat to the back even though this will bring back the flick when executed in tempo).

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by Alan

May be a solution to these broken test timings problem would be to have

2 separate events :

Foil with the current official timings

Foilepee with the test timings.

The goal of Foilepee being to be more telegenic
it could be used to implement all the other "ideas" of king René :

- passivity rule
- no off target lamps
- clear visors so that the spectators can see the fencers' faces
- refereing with video
...

- a small microphone under the masks so that the spectators hear the fencers' breath (smell detectors are not yet availaible)

- pists of 4 meters instead of 14 (largely enough for Foilepee)

- clear vests for women (to compete with beach volley)

So fencing would have 4 events in the Olympics :-)

WOW! What a NEW idea! I haven't seen ANYTHING like this BEFORE! You forgot the cheerleaders.

*Pendant Alert* Please stop refering To Roche as 'King', the term you are looking for is 'Emperor' as his sway is multinational.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by JackSparrow

Or revert to the old timings but implement a refereeing solution. As you all know, I have been defending the new timings even though I am by no means oblivious to their flaws. My attitude was set under the old timings when I fenced sussex house fencer, David Mansour. He was rushing forward with his arm bent back as far as it would go. I stuck my arm out hitting him square in the chest. At the last minute (way after my extension), he would whip his blade over hitting me on the back.

Yes the refereeing is the only solution.

In your case it is even surprizing you didn't get ROW for attack in prep.

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by Alan

Yes the refereeing is the only solution.

D'accord!

Originally Posted by Alan

In your case it is even surprizing you didn't get ROW for attack in prep.

Where have you been the last decade or so? THIS is why many people hate flicks!