Red Lake Tragedy: Bush Isn't a Racist, is He?

[Soldier]

My roommate didn't go anywhere, so he was around.

[Inquartata]

You mean he didn't go with you to help? Selfish barstid!

[gojujay]

Originally Posted by Maeve_Mari

BTW - before it gets too heated - the question of whether Bush is a racists was posed by the Native Americans in Red Lake... Not my assumption or accusation.

Trying to sidestep the heat?

[gojujay]

Originally Posted by Schiavona

Sorry to threadjack, but I wanted to comment about the above. The Catholic Church's absolute stance that killing people in any form is wrong is the only reason I can stomach the anti-abortion material I constantly recieve from them (myself being Catholic).

How does the Catholic Church support that stance? I can't find it in the Bible...

[gojujay]

Originally Posted by Larrison

As related reading, I highly recommend Jared Diamond's book "Guns, Germs and Steel".

I must concur. Very good work. Have you read William McNiell Plagues and People ?

[Soldier]

Originally Posted by gojujay

How does the Catholic Church support that stance? I can't find it in the Bible...

They don't.

[Larrison]

Originally Posted by gojujay

I must concur. Very good work. Have you read William McNiell Plagues and People ?

Yes I have, and I would recommend Davie's book on "Devil's Flu: The World's Deadliest Influenza Epidemic and the Scientific Hunt for the Virus That Caused It", for a look at a rather modern pandemic.

I've recently picked up Jared Diamond's recent book "Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed", and am looking forwards to reading it.

As a side note, there's a very interesting article by Charles Mann at http://cogweb.ucla.edu/Chumash/Population.html, which I recommend related to this thread.

[scrapinpeg]

Originally Posted by gojujay

How does the Catholic Church support that stance? I can't find it in the Bible...

I may be mistaken, but perhaps the Fifth Commandment has some bearing on it?

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by gojujay

How does the Catholic Church support that stance? I can't find it in the Bible...

The Church believes much that isn't in the Bible (didn't that lead to some schisms? ). One of the post Vatican II doctrines is that life (human, anyway) is a Gift from God and to waste it by killing, in any form, is a sin. I have no idea what their stance is on killing in self defense.

[gojujay]

Originally Posted by scrapinpeg

I may be mistaken, but perhaps the Fifth Commandment has some bearing on it?

My understanding is that the correct tranlation is "Thou shalt not murder". A murderer is most definitely a killer, but a killer is not necessarily a murderer. Fine distinction, perhaps, but the devil is in the details.

[Maeve_Mari]

Originally Posted by Schiavona

The Church believes much that isn't in the Bible (didn't that lead to some schisms? ). One of the post Vatican II doctrines is that life (human, anyway) is a Gift from God and to waste it by killing, in any form, is a sin. I have no idea what their stance is on killing in self defense.

The Catholic Church does not subscribe soley to the word as written in the bible. The bible is used as a source for bulding the foundation and core of belief, but it is the also the living and told stories of its people that provides the Catholics more to draw on for establishment of their faith. Unlike many other Christian religions that adhere strictly and rigidly to the written word of their bible, the Catholic Church bases its conviction on more than that. There is a beauty in the images of the living stories that are rich with belief and faith and provide to us more than what we can be taught about right and wrong by reading only the bible. God is an ever present, ever forgiving partner in our daily lives and his power is told and passed on through living each day and it collectively establishes Catholic belief.

[foilz]

As Catholics, we put our faith in our priest. For us, he is our touchpoint. It starts and ends there, basically.

[VERITAS]

Originally Posted by foilz

As Catholics, we put our faith in our priest. For us, he is our touchpoint. It starts and ends there, basically.

Really?

For whatever its worth, I received Confirmation recently and according to the preceeding classes and discussions, there is a little more to it than your priest. The Church's teaching authority, the Magisterium, interprets and applies the teachings of Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit. The reason why the Pope is so important is because he is the head of the Church on earth. He is our tie with God. All authoritative pronouncements come from him.
Of course, if you have a good priest who follows the proper teachings of the Magisterium, you are fine. But most problems in the Church are simply individual fallible humans making mistakes, the Holy Spirit continues to guide the Magisterium, and what is right and what is wrong does not change.

Regarding killing, the Catholic Church's position has been long misunderstood, and recently especially manipulated into all sorts of odd shapes.

Originally Posted by gojujay

Quote:Originally Posted by scrapinpeg

I may be mistaken, but perhaps the Fifth Commandment has some bearing on it?

My understanding is that the correct tranlation is "Thou shalt not murder". A murderer is most definitely a killer, but a killer is not necessarily a murderer. Fine distinction, perhaps, but the devil is in the details.

I believe he is correct. Specifically, self-defense is morally acceptable because you have no choice if your life, or your loved ones' lives are in danger. Fine points arise if it is possible to defend oneself without resorting to lethal force, but that is in the realm of fencing more than in that of the Church.
Abortion is wrong always because it is taking an innocent life--the baby-- for no better reason than the convenience of the parents. If the mother's live is in danger, and surgery has to be performed that might endanger the baby, it may be risked, but that is an operation to save the mother rather than an abortion to destroy the child.
Contraceptives, condoms, extra-marital sex, homosexuality are an abuse of our God-given sexual powers for unintended purposes. Marriage with goals of mutual salvation and pro-creation is the appropriate outlet.

You may certainly disagree on these issues, but this is what the Catholic Church teaches.
It gets tricky when the question of whether a war is just or unjust, and further whether it is prudent or imprudent. The justice of conflict. that is, "Should it be done?", is most difficult for the best-informed to determine, and the rest of us are at best only guessing. Prudence can be hard, too, because it is not as much a question of morals, it asks "Can it be done?".

It seems to me the affairs of our ancestors, whether friendly or killing eachother, or enslaving eachother, should not influence our current relations very much. And no ambitious politician would deliberately appear 'racist', especially not a member of the US Gov't to Native Americans.
Picking on our poor president has become a nation-wide sport. Why choose such a silly example?
The new Pope, the Dalai Lama, my local Archbishop, the visiting Archbishop from Nigeria, John Kerry, the Masons and the Knights of Columbus also were not present. In fact, they did not even offer condolences of any kind! Perhaps it is a grand conspiracy of racists.
Bush is certainly not perfect, but I am surprised the bush-ists cannot find better material than this. His position on capital punishment for instance.

[foilz]

Veritas, congratulations on your confirmation. I am so proud for you. That is a very big thing.

Interestingly, I was originally confirmed in the Presbyterian Church. I changed that when I became a Catholic. (My grandmother was a Catholic, who put that on the shelf, for almost all her life, for her Scottish Presbyterian husband).

Regarding your comments, I was thinking about Maeve Mari's comments in the thread, relating to posts about the Bible being the (exclusive) font for learning.

The Bible certainly is a font for learning. But as Catholics (as opposed to fundamentalist Christians, who are good people; and as opposed to Presbyterians, who are people of a rich faith) -- for our own tuition and for own nurturing in the Faith, we don't lean on the Bible, or our own individual interpretations. We trust in our Priest.

He is our touchstone, our mentor, our teacher, our channel, our interpreter, and our guide.

That doesn't change the power of the Bible, or the written word, or other traditions in our Church.

But it reinforces where we actually place our trust and our Faith. It's with the Priest.

This is OK with me.

Cheers,
Ian.

[Maeve_Mari]

Originally Posted by foilz

Regarding your comments, I was thinking about Maeve Mari's comments in the thread, relating to posts about the Bible being the (exclusive) font for learning.

Wait! I didn't say that, for Catholics, the bible is the exclusive font for learning or belief. In the Catholic Church I believe that it is the stories told to us which shape our faith, call us to follow, and keep us Catholic. It's the beauty of the tales told to us by our priests and laity that teaches us. I think that some other Christian religions preach to the word, and the exact word of the bible without room for interpretation and tale.

[foilz]

I agree with you. I agree with your first sentence in your post. You also said it's more than that, I agree. I'm with you. But the fact is, our Priests are it, for us. That's the reality, really.