aggresion and violence

[big poppa]

Is there a role for aggression and violence in our sport(I got Jacked by a Euro, he is my boy but I still want to bust his CENSORED) Welcome back to competition Poppa. Give me your thoughts?

[Clean Touch]

Absolutely! Fencing is fighting really, and one can't expect to win a fight without some measure of aggression. Violence, I don't think so, but aggression most definitely.

[Lumberg]

No, fencing is generally known as a non-contact sport. When I say non-contact, I mean hard physical contact as in boxing, wrestling, football, ice hockey, full contact karate, etc. I believe that's why there is the corps-a-corps penalty.

[Moonitic]

I've noticed that fencers with a certain amount of aggression tend to fare better than those who are timid on the strip. There's a difference between being violent & being aggressive.

Of course, let's not forget what these swords of ours were used for in the first place...certainly not to lightly tap on one another...

[arcon]

[ 10-19-2001: Message edited by: arcon ]

[Christopher J Umbs]

Well, it depends on what style of fencing you are doing... for HF, there is a lot of physical contact. I love going up against people who only have sport fencing or SCA backgrounds. They think they have everything covered till you grab their wrists and feed them the pommel. Despite that, once you get into weapons that are light enough to do dui tempi actions in a single time you want to ease up on the violence and use more bladeplay.

Chris

[Mergs]

Chris,

Isn't that why the distance game evolved? Sport fencer's should know better (although with the amount of gymnastics being executed with the behind the back "in-fighting" prettzel moves, it belies my premise) than to get sucked into closing to a point where you can grab their wrists!

On the other hand, I love to fence SCA/HF'ers for the same reason! Point control? Lunge? Parry risposte? (foriegn terms, it seems)

[This message has been edited by Mergs (edited 03-07-2001).]

[Crash55]

Aggression is good to an extent. It can give you an edge. However it can also make you less precise in your motions. You have to have find that fine edge between teh two levels.

Violence (besides stabbing people obviously) is bad. I fence epee so I expect some brushing and the occasional bump. However I don't expect to get checked or head butted. Last tournament this girl I was fencing ran into me (she attacked, I stood still) and then purposefully butted her head into my shoulder. Being close to twice her size I barely felt it. However she looked like she burst into tears.

[big poppa]

Thanks guys i needed the input.The people on this board always come through for me , many thanks

[Christopher J Umbs]

Mergs... doesn't seem to be the case. Most SF people I've seen understandably only worry about the blade so as long as they've got the steel controlled they think they are safe. Also, the other had allows a parallel set of tempos, so the SF fencer may have eluded the opponent's steel in tempo only to have it cancelled by the live hand.

Example: A & B both on guard 6
A: Lunge 6
B: Parry foil 5, reach forward with the left hand and grabs A's pommel while opposing down in 5

That's a quick disarm and not even one of the real violent ones.

Chris

[Gav]

Aggresion is a plus so long as it doesn't cloud your judgement. I should know. I am currently in a slump (after a long Christmas break and illness) and it's sometimes difficult to seperate out the frustration so that I train effectively.

I wouldn't stand for actual violence on the piste as this is a sport and meant to be fun. We are not duelling for our lives after all.

And I am surprised that Sf fencers fall for distance ploys a lot. Surely if they are doing a bit of HF they would be expecting the unexpected (so to speak)?

Ah well.

[Matt_Bailey]

Mergs:

SF'ers
Edge placement, power, being able to move along the the X, +, and O, not just the straight line, foreign concepts, it seems.

[veeco]

As far as I'm concerned, as a director, I won't let anyone fleche into someone. As soon as that happens, the cards start flying.

If you look at the olympic tapes, you'll see a lot of calls for "bousculade", which is, I think, the way to go.

Learn to control before being aggressive, that's the message I try to give when I'm directing.

[Catal]

Look at the USFA rulebook. There is also an abridged version of the list of penalties and there is reference made to violent or vindictive action. Clearly, these are subjective, but I believe it can be agreed that it can be observed when someone is going out of their way to hurt another person. You don't need to push your foil hard enough into someone such that the resulting bend presents the risk of breakage. You don't need to slam your epee into someone's genitalia to get a point. One doesn't need to make a windup action to hit someone. Of course, this is an "aggressive" sport, we're hitting people with long metal sticks, but it doesn't have to be a blood-thirsty sport.

[d8m2k]

Veeco,
I watched the Olympic tapes...
It got called sometimes. If you are referring to Fischer vs. Obry, I think the ref erred. Obry was stepping in, so partly his fault. And the ref did not card Fischer when he bell punched Orby in the head early in the bout, but at the end carded him for what looked like corps a corps.

In the WF, collisions happened, no cards given, Badea bellpunched Vezzali, no biggie.

Anyway, the rules are subjective, and every ref enforces them differently. And sometimes they make mistakes, and sometimes they let other factors influence them.

[veeco]

Actually Fisher got carded for bell punching. That was a yellow. The swedish commentators did not mention it, but I hear the referee clearly saying: bousculade. That's why the second time it's a red.

However, I do agree that the last call is dubious. Obry clearly draws the card.

In the ME team event, there a couple cards as well. It's kind of hard figuring them out, though, because they never mention it on screen. Sometimes, I'm glad the referees are directing in French and not in Swedish :-).