LP Gardere

[UTEpee]

LP Gardere grip, is this a legal grip for most USFA/FIE competitions?
it appears to be a marriage of a pistol/french grip, and perhaps something i may like if i like a belgian grip. any thoughts?

[grotto]

There have been several threads regarding this. Though the LP camp would disagree, the law of the land will make the Gardere illegal 99.9% of the time in the US. Do a search and enjoy the reading

[Alex_Paul]

http://www.fencing101.com/vb/showthr...hlight=gardere

This is/has been a fun and on going debate for some time now the thread above is probably the most thorough "discussion" of the two views. The reality is that they seem not to be accepted at USFA competitions but no one seems to be able to give a precise explaination of why. The rules are very badly worded and to be honest either interpretation could be argued to be correct.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Alex_Paul

http://www.fencing101.com/vb/showthr...hlight=gardere

This is/has been a fun and on going debate for some time now the thread above is probably the most thorough "discussion" of the two views. The reality is that they seem not to be accepted at USFA competitions but no one seems to be able to give a precise explaination of why. The rules are very badly worded and to be honest either interpretation could be argued to be correct.

Not true, Alex. Any number of people -- including top level US armorers like Don Clinton -- have stated that the extra prongs on the gardere COMBINED with the french pommel allow for the extra length of pommelling without the loss of grip control compared to pommeling a French grip. Thaty confers a possible equipment advantage to the Gardere user, and any superiority is supposed toi come from the fencer's skill, not his equipment.

Now could someone pommel a belgian or visconti?? Sure, but it'd be like fencing using the tang, and orthapedic grips are designed and intended to be held in one manner...the fact that someone COULD pommel a pistol grip and hook a finger around the palm butt does not invalidate that design...and, in fact, that would be against the rules. The French does not have that restriction, thus it can be legally held by the pommel, BUT the tradeoff is a physically weaker grip.

You want an honest interpretation? Send one of your national teammembers to a Word Cup with a Gardere and see what happens.

[DHCJr]

I actually like what Alex said. The rules ARE rather poorly written, but then that is not unique with the FIE rule book. Now, it is the usually considered illegal, but as Barry and me have said in the past, we have agreed to disagree. If someone has a way to write this clearer, I would be very happy. I have never figured a way to make it less vague. Of course, naming names would not work, we need to come up with a definition for an irregular shape.

[rcmatthews]

What I don't seem to understand is why the whole grip is illegal, rather than simply pommeling with the gardere. Just as "pommeling" a pistol grip is illegal, so should it be with the gardere. Please tell me if my logic is flawed.

[DHCJr]

Let me give an example about the rule M.4.6. First let us look at a Belgium handle, is it legal. It depends, one that is legal for me with a size 10 hand may not be legal for someone like one of our Cadet Lady Foilist. That is the 2cm rule and would be considered pommelling. But there is another part, which causes the controversy. What is 'can be held in one way only'. Yes you can hold a Belgium in multiple ways. For example you could hold it by the back prong. But the counter-argument go, do you have the same control with it. You can show that with the Gardere, you can keep the same control while holding from different distances.

The problem is, the rule doesn't specifically state that. It is an understanding of most. Because of the wording in the FIE rule book, you could fail every piece of equipment, if you wanted to go exactly what is written and ignore everything that is understood.

To give an example, look at the 2nd to the last sentence in M.28. Most lame would fail on that rule alone. It would take too long to show every ambiguous rule.

Because of this, there will always be a difference of opinions in many rules. I don't see the FIE cleaning up the rules any time soon.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

To give an example, look at the 2nd to the last sentence in M.28. Most lame would fail on that rule alone. It would take too long to show every ambiguous rule.

That's the one in swub paragraph C, right? Looks like it dowsn't take into account the curvature of the leg for fit...at least, I THINK I'm thinking of the same part of the lame...

Shall I mention another one of your faves....the sabre mask cord tab??

What FIE SHOULD do is include a graphic in the rulebook for each of the grips out there (in general....not necessarry to show every varient of the basic visconti design) showing the way it is INTENDED to be held and use that as the standard..that may clear up SOME of the ambiguity...

[rcmatthews]

Ok, I got it. The loss of control aspect actually seems like a good criteria for the "one position" debacle, i.e. if you can change positions without a loss of control, it is illegal to pommel and vice versa. But then we open ourselves to what exactly constitutes a loss of control.

[grotto]

Originally Posted by rcmatthews

Ok, I got it. The loss of control aspect actually seems like a good criteria for the "one position" debacle, i.e. if you can change positions without a loss of control, it is illegal to pommel and vice versa. But then we open ourselves to what exactly constitutes a loss of control.

Nice try, but that kills the french which up to now, can be pommelled without the loss of control.

How about: Any grip designed as an "orthopedic" or "ergonomic" aid, must be attached to the tang of the weapon with a recessed nut. Pommels or other weighted extensions of the tang are to be used with traditional french / italian style grips only.

ok gang fire away (ducks behind stackes of old rulebooks for cover!)

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by grotto

Nice try, but that kills the french which up to now, can be pommelled without the loss of control.

I think the issue isn;t so much loss of control, it's loss of power in the grip...loss of control from gripping the pommel is a result of a less powerful grip.

How about: Any grip designed as an "orthopedic" or "ergonomic" aid, must be attached to the tang of the weapon with a recessed nut. Pommels or other weighted extensions of the tang are to be used with traditional french / italian style grips only.

What about Leon Paul's tennis raquet epee grip? The grip itself is long....but the pommel nut is waaaaaay down the inside of the grip.

Now waiting for Donald Clinton to quote the rule book section on this!

[DHCJr]

The Lightweight Carbon Fibre Full Length Handle is a legal handle. Parts of M.4.1 are obsolete. It has been obsolete since orthopedic handles have become popular. You don't test that the handle alone without the pommel is 18cm. On the Gabarit, there is nothing built in to test that.

I will steal a quote from Alex Paul, many rules are badly worded.

[great bowyer]

how about: any grip may be used, so long as the fencer holds the weapon in such a way that the thumb is no more than 2 cm from the point inside the guard where the grip contacts the guard.

this would get rid of pommeling, but it would also clear up a lot of controversy, make it clearer and fairer on what grips may be used.

[keith]

Originally Posted by great bowyer

this would get rid of pommeling, but it would also clear up a lot of controversy, make it clearer and fairer on what grips may be used.

you aren't a french epeeist are you?

[noodle]

Originally Posted by great bowyer

how about: any grip may be used, so long as the fencer holds the weapon in such a way that the thumb is no more than 2 cm from the point inside the guard where the grip contacts the guard.

this would get rid of pommeling, but it would also clear up a lot of controversy, make it clearer and fairer on what grips may be used.

indeed. that rule would never go through france.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by great bowyer

how about: any grip may be used, so long as the fencer holds the weapon in such a way that the thumb is no more than 2 cm from the point inside the guard where the grip contacts the guard.

this would get rid of pommeling, but it would also clear up a lot of controversy, make it clearer and fairer on what grips may be used.

How could you enforce this. I could easily move my hand down while standing on guard, without the referee being the wisest. The referee is on the guard side of weapon and can not see the handle, thus the poorly written rule of 'held in one position'.

[grotto]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

How could you enforce this. I could easily move my hand down while standing on guard, without the referee being the wisest. The referee is on the guard side of weapon and can not see the handle, thus the poorly written rule of 'held in one position'.

This is why I was taking the tack of how an "othropedic" handle may be attached to the weapon. Instead or relying on how one holds it. Now I am sure someone would build a "rule killer" orthopedic with a pommel like structure and an inset nut.

Here is another Idea, take away all restriction except overall length of the handle and let the designers have at it. Personally I would love to try a Gardere, but the likelyhood of buying a grip I can't use is nil.

[grotto]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

What about Leon Paul's tennis raquet epee grip? The grip itself is long....but the pommel nut is waaaaaay down the inside of the grip.

I doubt if you could consider that thing "orthopedic"

[great bowyer]

several things...
1. it was a suggestion on a possible rule that might have the potential to eliminate the controversy around the different grips and how they are held. by requiring the weapon be held so far from the guard, you then make a standard so that no matter what grip you use, it does not give an advantage with extra reach or extra power.
2. i was not thinking of the enforcement, but rather i put down a thought for disscusion of a possible rule change that could be more specific as to what grips may be used.
3. altough i am an epeeist, i do not use the french grip. i am however not against people who do, or the people who like to pommel. however now that this thread has been up for a while, i would like to see the rules become more clear on the grips (among other things) that will be both fair and practical.

[howtobrew]

I have tried all the grips: Uhlmann Visconti, LP Carbon Fiber Full Length, Gardere, and Uhlmann French (rubber).

I started with pistol, but it made my hand cramp. I switched back to French, and then tried the other two LP grips as I got more comfortable with posting. The Carbon Full Length grip is not a comfortable grip to use. the square end digs into your hand, and the lack of angulation of the tang changes the location of the epee point in space - you have to re-calibrate your thrusts. I really like the feel of the gardere. It sits very well in the hand and the angulation is like the regular French.

I think the rule should be changed to only define the (current) total length of the grip, and that the grip protrusions must fit within the guard. I think that you should be permitted to have your hand anywhere on the handle that you wish.
Okay, probably need to add a restriction for total enclosure of the fingers i.e. like scissor handles, that would obviate the need for the fencer to have to "hold" the grip.