Do We really need the Sections

[fluidfencer]

Eric made my point than I could have. We have 100 in our club. There are probably some going to Sectionals, but I can't think of one off the top of my head. I wonder if it has a lot to do with the fact that the average age of our club is quite young.

Our coach made an observation to some of the parents and officers at a meeting recently. When he came to the U.S. from China about 6 years ago, Division I competitions were essentially all adults. Most bigger opens we held were almost all adult fencers. The changes in the composition/age of competitors since then has been profound. He also mentioned that something like Y10 MF had maybe 20 competitors just a few years ago, with 100 at the last one. I believe he was referring to Summer Nationals.

Michael Massik told me that in January the number of USFA members was around 16,000 versus 11,000 the year before at the same point in the season. Folks, there are some big changes brewing and if we just react after the fact, I see a some very tough growing pains coming. Our club has been working through that this year as well.

Originally Posted by edew

Not quite. Previously, the main route to qualify to nationals was through the division qualifiers to nationals. The division qualifiers to nationals (which was usually also the division championships and sectional qualifiers) would qualify a specified number, determined by the USFA. The sections themselves set another number for those who would qualify to the sectional championships. Then, if someone isn't already qualified to nationals from the division, they may qualify to nationals via the sectional championships.

Div IA was created as part of the major "Summer Nationals" overhaul plan that was conceived in 1996 and implemented with the first Summer Nationals in 1997. The Div IA was to make the sectional championships more important by making it the only route to qualify to Division IA (with a very small number of alternate qualifying paths).

I personally think the Div IA is a great steppingstone for up and coming fencers. Many top national fencers now started by doing well (or just competing in) the Div IA at one time or another. For example, the last two years' MF Div IA champions, Scott Sugimoto and Andras Horanyi are both very strong Div I caliber fencers. I'm sure a cursory check of the other weapons will reveal a similar trend.

The Div II and Div III also are great steppingstones for fencers to advance. Many of the Div IA fencers came from being successful in the Div II/III categories.

[edew]

Not only has the quantity of youth fencers increased, but the quality have increased in leaps and bounds. These Y10 and Y12 fencers are all doing some pretty remarkable fencing.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by edew

Not only has the quantity of youth fencers increased, but the quality have increased in leaps and bounds. These Y10 and Y12 fencers are all doing some pretty remarkable fencing.

And I can at least take some small comfort in knowing those young whipper-snappers can't do a darned thing unless one of us old grumps drives them to the tourney.

Yeah, that's right, Mr. 12-year-old Champion ... Who's got the driver's license, hmmmm?

[oso97]

Thanks everyone for your words of support for the Section Circuit we have running in the Southwest. You're right, it does help a lot with the caliber of fencing and gives a great venue for up-and-coming types to develop their skills, as well as what I call the "serious recreational fencer" a place to compete on their level. It is not easy managing such a thing, and requires a LOT of effort and support. My wife I know would be very happy if I just dropped the whole thing!

There has been some rather public speculation on this board by some people that its purpose has been served and should be disbanded. I and others disagree, and will continue to work to build it and make it better to the best of our abilities and as the resources we have to work with allow.

And to those in the Southeast Section, I say keep working at it! You know, there's nothing that says a regional effort has to involve your entire Section or even just your Section. I'll bet you could put together a decent regional circuit with events in Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, Southern Louisiana, and Tennessee.

A warning though, if you think herding cats is hard, try adminstering a regional circuit based on compromise, consensus and mutual support...

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by edew

Sections were created in the old days when the nationals were always in NY and folks in California can't always travel (usually by train) to NY, which would take maybe 2 weeks each way. Who's got the time, then? So, the Pacific Coast Section was created to allow fencers to compete at a championship level closer to home. Then other sections were formed to make it equitable for other outlying areas.

Now, of course, nationals are always in california and some of us can't afford airfare... [/WHINE]

I like sectionals (I haven't been to one yet, but will this year) because it provides the opportunity to fence some of the top fencers in the country without going outside of driving distance. Or...if not the TOP fencers, then some darn good ones. In other words, I can fence some people much better than me, and learn many of the things I would learn at nationals, without flying across the country.

[mrbiggs]

Oh, one quick question.

Do sectional events require the same fencing equipment as nationals? By which I mean, name on lamé, name on knickers, etc.

And one more quick question--my mask has a small dent, more like a crater than anything else, maybe an inch in diameter. It's not deep, it's just flat as opposed to the rest of the mask, which is curved. Would an armorer fail it?

[CvilleFencer]

I am in the Southeast Section and I have a few major complaints with how things are laid out. One is that this year at least there is a horrible amount of confussion as to when/where the tourney will be held in the first place. That aside my big gripe is geography. One of the first things that bug me is that FL has 3 sections (even though all three put together only have about as many fencers as our one section), which means our sectional tourneys that are supposed to be spread out over the states every year are in fact in FL at least 3 years out of the 10 (and since one of the states in our section has no clubs and another is very tiny it usually winds up being like 5 times every 10 years from what I have been told) it is supposed to moved around. Another big beef is that with the exception of Gateway FL and NC there are no real peer Divisions in the SES with regards to numbers or strength of fencers. Looking over last year’s results for ME for the SES I see that about half of the top eight are from VA, which makes sense seeing as how VA has some very strong fencers (last year we had VA D rated fencers qualifing for Div 1 at the SE Sectionals!).

As for my Division, it has a lot of fencers from the DC and MD Divisions that regularly compete in our comps and it is not uncommon for our better opens to be bigger/stronger than Sectional Champs. Add to that the fact that it is often closer or about the same to fly to Nationals as it is to fly to wherever the SES Sectionals are and most of the fencers in VA don't even bother... except for once every seven years when it is in VA, and even then last year it was about as far from the strongest fencing areas of our state (Central and Northern VA) as it is possible to get and still be in the same state.

I think that there needs to be a serious redistricting by the USFA. Our Division has looked at succeeding (for lack of a better word) to the MAS since they are the divisions that we are actually involved with and whose tourneys most of us travel to but the SES does not want to let us go without a serious fight and most of our Div 1A types like the fact that for the ones that are not auto qualified the SES Sectionals is not anywhere near as tough as if we were part of the MAS. I guess if I were at that level I would see their point more.

I really did not intend this to turn into a "VA is the best fencing state in the SES" or anything like that, but in our case being part of the SES does not make a lot of sense as far as geography or where our fencers go to tourneys except to the very top level fencers who want an easier time qualifying. Still, I guess they are the only ones that Sectionals really matter too since that is all that a Section is really good for. Qualifing the Div I types for Summer Nats. Since they took out the Div II/III path for Sectionals I could care less myself. I guess I just feel that since we have such close ties with MD and DC we should be part of the same section on paper as well as in fact. I am sure other Divisions have similar issues with their sections and their neighbors.

I guess after writing all that out and reading over it I don't have a good solution and I don't hate being part of the SES or anything like that. When I get my B chances are I will be pretty happy with the situation since I get my head beat in by the top fencers from MD, DC and sometimes PA at local tourneys. At least at Sectionals I get to fence people I have never met or heard of before! I just hate having to travel to FL 3 times a year to do it. Actually I don't travel to FL ever to fence in Sectionals because I could spend about the same or less money and go to a NAC so it has never made sense to me, but when I do have to worry about Div I stuff that will probably be my argument/gripe...

[KD5MDK]

And one more quick question--my mask has a small dent, more like a crater than anything else, maybe an inch in diameter. It's not deep, it's just flat as opposed to the rest of the mask, which is curved. Would an armorer fail it?

Well, does it pass punch test? I've never seen a tournament that doesn't test masks (even if they don't test anything else), so you ought to be able to get it tested. If it passes punch, I think most armorers would qualify it, but I can't speak for the pros here.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Oh, one quick question.

Do sectional events require the same fencing equipment as nationals? By which I mean, name on lamé, name on knickers, etc.

And one more quick question--my mask has a small dent, more like a crater than anything else, maybe an inch in diameter. It's not deep, it's just flat as opposed to the rest of the mask, which is curved. Would an armorer fail it?

Not all Sections require the name. What happens if there is no one like the Marx there? I happen to carry a Large Washable Blue marker just in case.

The punch is one tool, but not the only tool. As has been discussed in the visor mask thread, there are other ways to fail a mask and never use a punch. Some are a broken wire, excessive rust or something that can catch a blade. If the trim is coming up, if there is a hole in the bib or if there is a deep enough dent, these can be considered as too dangerous even if it would pass a punch if tested. Luckily all of these are repairable. There is the hot glue gun, a sewing kit and you can push out the dent.

You want to take out a dent, even if it is small. Any hit close to that dent will likely slide down into that dent, impacting it more and more.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

(M)y big gripe is geography. ... I think that there needs to be a serious redistricting by the USFA.

It's a valid concern. Tell ya what: You gather additional supporters of the redistricting idea, convince them to seek out other supporters, and then apply that pressure to the Powers That Be at the USFA to realign its membership borders.

Yeah, that's right. Someone's gotta lobby for this. It's too easy to complain and mumble amongst ourselves and yet never push to get it fixed.

(Me? Nah. I'd rather be one of the nameless yet enthusiastic support minions.)

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by Victor

Yeah, that's right. Someone's gotta lobby for this. It's too easy to complain and mumble amongst ourselves and yet never push to get it fixed.

I agree! I am sure that most people have similar excuses, but for me with a club, 3 school programs, a parks and rec. program, serving on my Division BOD, having a job and a Fiancée and if I am lucky being able to actually work on my own horrible fencing, I don't think I am the person to lead this worthwhile cause. I will be happy to supply long and rambling mostly on topic e-mails as insomnia permits however!

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

You want to take out a dent, even if it is small. Any hit close to that dent will likely slide down into that dent, impacting it more and more.

Okay, thanks.

[azfencer]

I thought I heard from people "in the know" three or four years ago that the USFA was planning on phasing sectionals as we knew them out in favor of some new system. It was supposed to have already happened by now so I'm guessing it turned out harder than they expected to come up with an alternate system. Really, given that sections don't have many responsibilities I think they work ok. Huge kudos to the sections that organize a sectional circuit that enables fencers to know which tournaments in neighboring divisions are big enough to be worth traveling to! Otherwise all I really expect is for the section to organize sectional qualifiers at least two months or so ahead of time so people have time to arrange travel and to have a token meeting at the event. (I'm pretty sure we've had mostly the same sectional officers for the last decade.)

Different areas of the country just have vastly different densities of fencers. I'm in the rocky mountain section and it's huge!!! There is absolutely no way I can drive to sectionals in some of the states, this year it would be a 14 hour drive and it's in one of the closer states. I really don't like that because no one except the narrow nitch of people needing U19 or Div1a are willing to go to the time and expense so the tournament is pitiful, nothing like the fencing experience I would like for the time and money invested. I just can't see how they could do it much differently though. There aren't enough fencers within a state or two around here to justify any "qualifier" worth qualifying for anything.

I would really look forward to hearing any kind of new system that people think is realistic and better than what we have now. What have you got people???

[Victor]

I really like the SWS circuit event series. The cummulative point system provides an enjoyable incentive for those fencers who fall somewhere between the recreational and nationally competitive levels.

[grotto]

If you would have asked me this question 2 yrs ago I would have been 100% yes sections are great. This coming from Michigan. The Great Lakes section posts tournaments, holds a very nice sectional circuit, and does a great job of connecting all the divisions in the section. We had no trouble finding out of state events to go to from Chicago to Cleveland and down to Louisville. Since moving to the Southeast Section I have not seen the cohesion or team work between divisions, also the fact that the southeast section stretches from FL to VA does not help. So now I don't know if they are "necessary" or just a nice thing when it works.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by azfencer

There is absolutely no way I can drive to sectionals in some of the states, this year it would be a 14 hour drive and it's in one of the closer states.

We did it last year. It's not the most fun I've ever had, but I have come to dislike flying...

I really don't like that because no one except the narrow nitch of people needing U19 or Div1a are willing to go to the time and expense so the tournament is pitiful, nothing like the fencing experience I would like for the time and money invested.

And this year the USFA in its infinite wisdom has decided to schedule Div I-A and Veteran events at Nationals on the same days ( not for MF or ME, of course, those events are important ), so the turnout is likely to be even more paltry. Why bother to qualify if I can't fence the event?

[lovetofence]

I for one feel very lucky to be in the Pacific Coast Section. I have been all over this wonderful Nation and lived and fenced in many other Sections in my over 30 years of this great sport. (yes I'm a Vet fencer) I am not a political person but I do enjoy and respect the time and efforts the officers put in for this Section. The website is the most informative one I have ever seen and the most up to date. I know what that takes since I too build websites for major corporations, hence my traveling from state to state.

Since the inception of the Pacific Coast Section Circuits in 1995 the Pacific Coast has taken off into a higher level of fencing for all. They not only have Section Circuits for seinors but for the Youth and Jr's too. They have the most indepth program running that I have ever seen. I have never met the Section Chair but I do know that he has been there for quite some time, maybe over 10 years or so, and hearing him talk at the Section meeting each year I get the strong feeling that he has been batteling some very self-centered Division officers who refuse to bring unity to the Section because they think that they are 'islands' and will not help other events that benifit the Section as a whole.

As to their guidelines, by-laws, and operation manual I think they have it together. I would love to see other Sections copy what they have done, if not with the Section Events then with the by-laws and operation manual. it's on their website for all to download.

Without the Duel in the Desert tournament (Another Section Circuit event) we may never have had the USFA look at Vegas as the next World CUp site which it is now. Actually it's a Grand Prix World Cup going on this July.

I feel Sections can and do work if you have the right people and I know for my self that the Pacific Coast Section has the right people. From reading the other posts I see the SWS and the NWS feel the same way about theirs. That's good.

[nahouw]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

And this year the USFA in its infinite wisdom has decided to schedule Div I-A and Veteran events at Nationals on the same days ( not for MF or ME, of course, those events are important ), so the turnout is likely to be even more paltry. Why bother to qualify if I can't fence the event?

Yeah, I noticed that too... it changed my plans for sectionals......at least now I have a free weekend...

I do project planning and scheduling for a living -- I would even volunteer my time for free to the USFA, because scheduling these events to NOT have conflicts is pretty much a no-brainer. I don't know how somebody let this year's schedule for Summer Nationals passed -- what were they thinking? Schedule Vets WITH Div 1A? The only 2 events most Vets will fence? Gets out of the scheduling issue and into the finances.... I guess the USFA is rolling in money and doesn't need entry fees....

[fence1848]

I am in the SE section - I started in VA division and now live in Central FL division. My observation is that we would have far fewer complaints about the section if the section chair would simply take a little more effort to communicate. With anyone. Starting maybe with his fellow officers.

It would also help if he had internet access. Becker's division, Goldcoast FL, is the only division in the Southeast section that does not have a web site. Becker's club listing on the USFA web site doesn't even have an e-mail address. I teach fencing in Central Florida but often get e-mails from people in Miami who are looking for a place to learn fencing, but can't find anything in that area (see how much business a web site can pull in for your club?)