Old and slow with a dream

[RJ]

In the risk of sounding of sounding like I'm going through an early mid-life crisis, here goes: I'm a 35 year old guy with a full time job and two kids who has a dream of going to the Olympics and fencing Epee for the US ( I know, BIG DREAM). I have been fencing for a few years, but only dry and I have no tournament experience. DO I think I might have what it takes, hell, maybe. I won't know until I give it a shot. AM I crazy??? LOL... Can someone point me procerdurally in the right direction? How can I get ranked? Tournament advice? Anything and everything would be an incredible help!

[neevel]

Hmmm...

The most constructive advice I'd have in terms of long-term goals would be to re-direct your objective to Veterans World Championships. Although fencing's not quite as 'young-peaking' a sport as some, I'd really have to say that if you're not able to medal at international competition by your early 20's at the latest, you realistically aren't going to be able to make a team. There have been people who've made Olympic teams in after ~35 (Romankov in '88 comes to mind), but in all cases these were people who had been spectacular international competitors by their 20's.

I have, however, known people who've made or been in contention for a Vet.WC team who started later in life (Delia could likely speak to you on this). You need to find a top-flight coach (look for at least Div. I national level experience at the minimum), you'll need to establish a serious conditioning program, spend a lot of full afternoons/evenings training, and spend a lot of weekends travelling to both regional and national (esp. Veterans) tournaments.

Where are you located? That could help people in directing you to a coach/club. If you're serious about competing at a high level, then you may need to look at commuting to a high-level club rather than going to a more convenient, but less competitive, club.

-Dave

[damianip]

Take it from me (44 YO, FTJ, one kid), it's a midlife crisis.

Advice:

If it's épée you're after, you must immediately fence electric and fence a lot of tournaments.

Get private lessons from a good coach.

You get ranked by competing in National competitions (National Championships and NACs) and placing well and earning points.

You'll have to practice 5-6 days a week.

That said, guys in their late thirties at the Olympics are typically Europeans who have been fencing for 30 years and at the top of their game for the past fifteen. Even then, they are up against some awesome youths.

I've got a better goal: try to get some National points. That alone is a tall order if you're a Senior just starting out. Once you accomplish that, shoot for a ranking.

Once you're 40 you can compete in the Veteran class: no hyperactive, high speed teenagers and twentysomethings trying to kill you!!

Good luck and keep at it.

Paolo

[RJ]

Thanks for the advice guys! What you both are saying makes good sense. I would be happy just to say I was ranked nationally at my age, and indeed the VWC sound more my speed considering everything I'd be up against. Best to be completely realistic in goal setting--not that the VWC sound like a walk in the park;-)

I'm located in Louisville, KY. The nearest club is the Louisville Fencing Center. Their head coach is Leszeck Stawicki. I know very little about him, except that he claims to have coached at the olympic level. I will make an appointment and drop in next week.

[Peach]

Stawicki is a very distinguished coach and I recommend him. He has coached at the Olympic level, is very involved with the wheelchair fencing movement, and taught the Level I Sabre at the USFA Coaches College the year I did that one.

Dave's advice is excellent.

I started at 43 (I'm 50 now), have national open points, and am training for when the Veteran World Championships finally decides to include women's sabre. My advice is to take it slow in the beginning. I have seen an awful lot of people (of all ages) charge into fencing with the idea of making it to the top. I've outlasted most of those people. Put in your time.

As an older fencer, I also have to be vigilant about not over-training and to back off and adjust my training level the moment I notice a joint giving me problems.

Good luck.

--Delia

[neevel]

Leszeck Stawicki was coach for the Polish national team, and has a well established reputation in the U.S.-- he would be first rate, both in terms of his technical knowledge and his human skills.

Delia's absolutely correct about going slow and getting basics down. Your over-30 ligaments and joints aren't going to be as resilient in the face of abuse as they were 10 years ago, so you need to make sure your form and conditioning are good before you really start pushing yourself. Stawicki's brought a lot of fencers from being novices to top competitors-- he'll have a very good sense of when you're ready to graduate to sucessive levels of competition.

-Dave

[las]

One of the most important issues to your training program will convincing your coach or club to take you seriously. A top coach's time is worth more than the money he/she charges. They only have so many hours in the day to give lessons/ manage their clubs, so you can appreciate that every hour is precious. A strong work ethic on your part will be a benefit.

It is the collective group of succesful fencers that a coach produces in their career that influences overall his/her value in the national fencing community. The right coach/student match-up at the right time can produce a single star. In contrast, a truly brilliant coach will be able to (and will be looking to) produce many stars. It is their vocation to do so.

What this means to you is if you approach your committment to the sport with reservations or other higher-ranked priorities (career, spouse, family, community) you will already have a big mark against you. It will be more difficult to gain the attention of top coaches, have a chance at convenient lesson times or be invited to train with better athletes (elite camps). Which is exactly what every good cadet/junior fencer is doing.

Additionally, you'll find many coaches are comfortable and trained in teaching young students but are less successful in teaching adults. (And some adults are poor students.) You'll need to find a good fit.

Cadet/Junior fencers train early in the day (usually), and you may need to adjust your work schedule to accommodate this. The overall volume of work is enormous- after some practices you'll probably need to take an aerobics class or go weight training.

Get used to laundry.

And as Peach said, at your age you are more prone to overtraining and everyone knows this. A little tendonitis here/there and next maybe a muscle strain or something else which leads to time off during a season. This won't help your cause and can become a psychological drain for you if injuries persist.

This is not to say that you can't become successful. This is very possible and rewarding. You must strive to be honest with yourself,your team mates/club mates, and your coaches. This includes a solid reality check every now and then and a thorough self-assessment (gap analysis). A good book on goal-setting will be essential if you haven't already mastered these skills.

Everything these people have posted here in reply to your request is sound advice. You may want to set your sights on the Vets. circuit as suggested. However to compete internationally on a US team you'll have a long wait. The minimum age is 50yrs.

Good luck.

[Miep]

Hi RJ,

As mentioned in a previous post post,top notch coaching is key for an older fencer. I started fencing at 31, and reached the finals of Div I nationals last year at age 40. My coach is my husband, and I credit my results to his considerable investment in me both as a fencer and a significant other. I'm not sure an uninvolved coach would have bothered to take the time to deal with an older fencer. If you go to Europe to train, expect the Euros to view you with some puzzlement, as they are not accustomed to "over the hill" fencers seeking high level training.

The fencers on the national level seem to get younger every year, and it is sometimes hard not to feel like a fossil out there! If you are motivated and somewhat athletic, you can achieve a measure of success in this sport.

Although it sounds cliche, I think you will find that the journey is worth far more than the end result. Best of luck to you.

[robert]

Hey I don't want to stop anyone for chasing a dream but if you set a reasonable goal and exceed or reach
it then you can stretch for a higher one. It is unlikely that you would make an Olympics starting at your age. You could certainly make a Masters Games with 1/ good coaching 2/ practice and 3/ a dedication to the sport. If you shoot for that and develop other fencing skills at
the same time you might find yourself making an Olympics in another role i.e. volunteer, armourer, team manager, referee or organizer, coach trainer or some variation of your current job or life skills. These often have more long-term potential then the combat itself.
You should fence because you like it, it keeps you healthy and it provides a social atmosphere
job or life skills. These often have more long-term potential then the combat itself.

[robert]

I would want to add that you should try and find some
good training partners or experienced
fencers to work with on a regular basis. You need to learn the fundamentals and learn them well, experienced fencers are often happy to help and have a new body to face. Lessons are essential but you will have no fun if that is all you do.
and a coach will help. But if you can find a few experienced training partners or a club with a strong adult program then you can enjoy the couple years you will spend making a strong foundation and from there make your plans forward. Don’t ever
worry about being last because you are still better off then the person who didn’t come out and try. I have been at this for 20 years and I am still delaying my mid-life crisis as I refuse to admit my life is half over.

[jspierre]

You've got to go for this. Kick sand at the "mid life crisis" thing. Forget that; the age of competitive athelets is always creeping up. You may be 40 something chronologically but physically capable of performing like a 33-37 year old. That's a good age for fencing, actually. You don't want to be like the woman pushing 30 something and regretting that she never took a risk and now it's too late. Just go for it.

On your issues:

1. yeah, coaches need to coach young guys/girls that may reach into the highest levels, but, you know what, since Capo Ferer invented the lunge, fencing coaches get paid. I pay my coach a bit extra, and, low and behold, he takes it happily and I get 20 min lessons with him up to 3x a week, no sweat. Pay the coach. He'll coach you. If he came to America, he came, in part, for the Greenbacks. That's not cynical.

2. get in shape - fast. I mean serious shape. Run, lift, stretch, pay attention to abs, calfs and shoulders. You'll waste everyone's time including your own if you show up at the club like a physical wreak. Forget all that blather about "older people need to watch their joints, blah, blah, blah..." If your joints are good, go for it, your body needs phyical stress, it grows with phyical stress and responds to physical stress. If you're fat, loose it, pronto. Watch your diet. Have some self-respect.

3. buy the best equipment (assumes some reasonable level of income). Don't waste time on crappy equipment. Get good stuff, and get it now. Look like a fencer. It helps.

4. if you go, go and think of the commitment like a job, in the sense that you've got to show up, you've got to be focused, disciplined and committed. I once asked my Russian coach what's the difference between American fencers and Europeans. He said, for Europeans, it's like a job, not baby sitting.

5. Buy the books, watch the tapes, ask the questions and study. Keep a notebook of your progress and bouting. Study the mental side of the game. Practice Ideal Performer State (get the book). Visualize the actions. Shadow fence at home before bed. Aim for perfection in technique. Figure out how to employ technique into bouting. Don't be rigid, let your personality flow into your game on the strip but don't be a clown either. Serious but fun. It's not a contradiction.

6. It's the process not the end point. Yes, have a goal, but they have to be realistic and stepwise. The process though it the real focus, and the process is what transforms, more than the goal. Have no doubt about getting into this. Anyway, .00000001% of the people in this sport make the Olympics and an even smaller subset of them win anything. Your shot at the sport is as legitimate as theirs. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Go to the competitions. Get the t-shirt. Fence touch to touch.

Start fencing - now.

[Pierfrancesco]

well if you're not motivated after that theres something wrong with ya!!!

now i want to go to the olympics too!

[edew]

How old was Elaine Cheris when she started fencing? She made the women's epee team in 1996 at some ridiculous age of 50+.

EDEW

[Sciurus Rex]

To be blunt: If, at 35, you have to ask people on this board, "Do I have what it takes?" ... Then, no. You don't.

No insult intended. Really.

It's just that there's a certain quality and quantity of determination required to become an Olympian that most of us will never know.

That's NOT to say that you should give up and walk away. I would suggest instead that you reevaluate your personality, lifestyle, drive and other contributing factors and choose a more attainable (although still challenging) goal. For example: Set out to dominate your division or section. Place in the top four at NACs next year. That sort of thing.

Heck, if you succeed there, you might be able to fulfill your Olympic dream after all. (shrug) Slap me down and prove otherwise? More power to ya.

[las]

I think Elaine was a foil fencer before she became an epee fencer. Can anyone verify this? She started fencing quite late in life but was previously a track athlete . I think I remember someone saying the she was a sprinter. She also owns/operates a fencing salle.

Even today, she is a very in-shape, intense and focussed person.

[edew]

[quote]Originally posted by las:
<strong>I think Elaine was a foil fencer before she became an epee fencer. Can anyone verify this? She started fencing quite late in life but was previously a track athlete . I think I remember someone saying the she was a sprinter. She also owns/operates a fencing salle.

Even today, she is a very in-shape, intense and focussed person.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, she was a foilist before she became an epeeist. She was an Olympian in the '80 Olympics as a member of the foil squad, as well as the '88 Olympics (and the 96 Olympics in epee).

So, if she was around 50+ at the 96 Olympics, she would have been mid 30s in the 80's Olympics.

[RJ]

Thank you all for your support, feedback and advice. Trust me, I have thought about and considered the weight of every word equally. The physical aspect of high competition isn't as bothersome to me as some might suspect considering my age. I have been an active athelete for many years (Wing Chun Gung Fu, Jeet Kune Do, boxing, fencing)and can hang in the gym with the young pups. My endurance needs some work though--I can fix that, LOL. I have made the mental "click" to do this and put my guts into it, wherever it takes me. It feels good knowing there are some people out there i don't even know in my corner. Thanks.

[daveb]

I fenced in college for 4 years and got pretty good. I went to nationals in 95 and got crushed but had fun. I am almost 31 now. I have remained fairly fit but fencing is a very specific sport. I discovered my legs are not as limber as I remembered them being at my peek. But 4 years to national competition? Sure thing! You can do this. I think olympics may be for the younger guys but the greatest thing about fencing is you can go to a large tournament and fence some of those guys who are on the team. Like going to shag a few balls at the range and Tiger Woods shows up needing someone to play against. Chances are you will get beat but you can sure learn some things.

Go to as many tournaments as you can. The bigger the better. Get beat, watch the guys who beat you, see what they do. Video tape if possible and go home and study. This won't replace a coach but I did this with Mark Baume (French Jr. National champ in the late 80's) and did pick up soem good pointers.

[its_me_mango]

move to france or italy, wash dishes for a living and fence, and then fence as a vetern in something fancy and win a cup or something, then retire from international competition, teach fencing in a local salle, and become a broker. t[i think]

[edelstein]

[quote]Originally posted by neevel:
<strong>Hmmm...
Although fencing's not quite as 'young-peaking' a sport as some, I'd really have to say that if you're not able to medal at international competition by your early 20's at the latest, you realistically aren't going to be able to make a team. There have been people who've made Olympic teams in after ~35 (Romankov in '88 comes to mind), but in all cases these were people who had been spectacular international competitors by their 20's.
-Dave</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ohhh,
you're spoiling my dreams, I too want to reach high level competitions and I'm 21, started last year, thought that best fencers weren't that young. <img src="graemlins/crap.gif" border="0" alt="[Crap]" />