Refereeing at NAC D Denver

[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

Honestly, if I were pressed into 4 days of directing Div 2/3, I would start looking around for a boatfull of Greeks with flaming pokers to gouge out my eye.

*shudder* DIV III Women's Epee *shudder*

Do you have an odd desire to herd sheep and consume human flesh as well

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by DJ Apostrophe

The best part about Fuhro's refereeing is watching the faces he makes while watching actions... I find them quite amusing.

-w

They're not quite as good as the faces he makes while fencing, but they certainly are entertaining.

[DJ Apostrophe]

they''re much easier for everyone to see wheen he is refereeing and not fencing though...

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

And yes, I managed to forget Brad somehow. Though I don't think I had him for any of my bouts.

You did. And the fact that you don't remember it is actually quite a nice compliment to a referee.... (either that, or a sign that you're a vet fencer) :)

-B :)

[oiuyt]

For reference, the guidelines for referees are available at
http://www.fencingofficials.org/Info...rReferees.html

There's nothing explicitly in it about talking with/being friendly with fencers.

Obviously there's an implied line of how chummy one can be before it goes over into at least an appearance of bias.

-B :)

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

(either that, or a sign that you're a vet fencer)

-B

What, it HAS to be one or the other?

[edew]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

For reference, the guidelines for referees are available at
http://www.fencingofficials.org/Info...rReferees.html

There's nothing explicitly in it about talking with/being friendly with fencers.

Obviously there's an implied line of how chummy one can be before it goes over into at least an appearance of bias.

-B

I think anything under $50 is just "between friends". Anything more may construe bias.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

What, it HAS to be one or the other?

No, If I mean "XOR", I'll use "XOR". :)

-B :)

[annacattiva]

It might not say anything much in the handbook about it, but in the Referee Code of Ethics (also linked off fencingofficials.org) it says that the referee is supposed to "maintain and promote complete neutrality," which was definitely not what my referee was doing. Not that I think that refs should be totally silent and not communicate with fencers other than what is strictly necessary, just that making it seem before the bout that you are not neutral isn't really the way to make people trust you.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by edew

I think anything under $50 is just "between friends". Anything more may construe bias.

what's the worth of a really good back massage?

i mean, i've been known to give a friend a back massage, who just happened to be reffing the next bout, who just happened to contain a fencer i was stripside coaching.


............ of course, there was NOTHING that was going to change the outcome of that bout, if i remember correctly............

[Mauler]

Annacattiva,

You do have a very good point about the referees' role in providing for an atmosphere of neutrality, and how strong an effect (negative one at that) a simple innocent gesture might make.

As referees mature in skill and experience, they begin to see and respect the wisdom behind the Code of Ethics...... Every single word of it, which has been very carefully thought out.

Earlier in a referee's career, he/she is primarily focused on the details such as accuracy/consistency of calls, level of knowledge, getting the next rating, etc. Only after a long experience and right guidance do they begin to develop a sense of their place in the big picture. It is difficult at first to separate their individual selves and the role that they play as a functionary of an event. But over the years, we all learn.

Referees are creatures of habit. Which means that in the long run, we're not measured by how great a job we might have done in one instance, but by how we handle things ALL THE TIME, as a matter of habit. And we're constantly under peer observation, regardless of whether it's official or not. We are also constantly being evaluated (albeit unofficially) in EVERYTHING we do as referees by our senior peers whether we realize it or not.

So chances are, if what you have observed was "over the line," then the fellow referees and the FOC's are already aware of it. Not because of that particular incident, but by the referee's usual manner of doing things while on (and off) duty. And what needs to be corrected, will be, in time. Anyone who can't control this "less well known" aspect of their performance are identified very quickly among our ranks.

Having said that....

Yes, referees are human. And yes, friendships develop by the "regulars" -- higher level fencers and referees who are used to each other over time. Even without actual "friendships" forming up, usually mutual respects develop among those who have seen each others grow and mature in their respective endeavors.

There is something else to consider as well. Current crop of the "usual gang" of referees you see at national events have an unprecedented integrity and competence as a group. Part of what they are VERY GOOD AT is the ability to instantaneously put themselves into the "reffing mode" at a moment's notice.

It's a learned skill. Being an individual self at one moment, and then placing oneself into a role the next. This skill is greatly encouraged/learned among the current body of referees unofficially simply by exposure and repetition of what they do in an environment they are placed in.

This isn't unlike a high-performance fencer's ability to be at ease one moment, and at a moment's notice put oneself into the "Zone" with a simple mental trigger.

So that may very well have been the case, and it often is. An experienced fencer and a referee who have seen enough of each other's performance over the years to have developed mutual respect, as well as trust in each other's honesty enough to "drop the guard" and not worry about the appearance of impartiality. Top fencers and referees also understand the value of being comfortable (even forcing oneself to be comfortable) with direct relation to performance. So when they do recognize each other's attempt to control their own pressure, they don't particularly try to make it worse. But this does have a negative effect of hinting an environment for bias.

[Repechage]

Originally Posted by Mauler

An experienced fencer and a referee who have seen enough of each other's performance over the years to have developed mutual respect, as well as trust in each other's honesty enough to "drop the guard" and not worry about the appearance of impartiality.

Or he could have been a ref who figured it was all right for him to do whatever he wanted because it was only a Div II/III. Get real (and a little less sanctimonious) please. Refereeing is improving but it is not holy orders yet.

[annacattiva]

I've been around fencing long enough to have developed some of those friendly relationships (both as a fencer and as a ref) with other fencers and refs. The situation I found myself in at the last NAC seemed to go beyond what I consider acceptable relaxation and enjoyment of fencing between refs and fencers. That was made worse when it started seeming like I couldn't buy a touch from him. I've heard other comments about the same ref, so I suspect that this is something that has already come to the attention of the FOC. Chalk it up to more experience and more knowledge of different referees, but unfortunately expensive experience and knowledge.

[Mauler]

Now the negatives.

Two major problems in the situation you've described. First is actually worse than what you suggested. It's not a "mere" Ethics Code violation, but something a little more concrete -- a breach of procedure.

Nothing personal about it. It's part of a standard routine for a referee to ALWAYS take a quick look at his/her assignment when it's first handed down at the Bout Committee table. That step is there in order to let the assigneur know that there's a potential (or very real) conflict in the assignment. Perhaps there's a personal friend on the list, or an enemy, or even a fencer from the same club/Division.... or (here's a good one) a fellow referee.

The source of conflict doesn't even have to be "real." FOC guidelines advise the referee to walk away if there's even a hint/appearance of bias.

Then it's just simply a matter of the assigneur grabbing the clipboard, erasing the referee's name and swapping it with another's. And out they go to work. No questions asked, no eyebrows raised. For many referees, it's such a habitual and obvious part of the routine, it oftentimes escapes the category of "things that should be taught to the new referees."

Second problem. Bad customer service. You, as a fencer, have the right to expect a fair and competent officiating in EVERY point and EVERY bout you fence. In reality, of course, that's not going to be fulfilled, and even the rules make demanding that right very difficult. Nevertheless, that is the spirit behind the ethics and policies that are supported and educated by the FOC.

It's the working referees' responsibility to do their absolute best to strive for that "customer service" aspect of the fencing industry. By definition, half of the customers in that bout (you) were quite dissatisfied with the referee's work. And that's one too many! Not only for the perceived/real bias reason, but for something a little more serious......

Even by the end of the bout, you still haven't been able to "buy any calls" from the referee. Regardless of whether the referee's "style" is right or wrong, it's bad craft if he/she doesn't provide an environment of consistency AND clear communication (really good ones accomplish this without even saying a word) that allows you to "figure out the ref" within the first two or three touches of the bout. That, it seems, wasn't accomplished in your bout.

I suspect that FOC's are already very well aware of all this. It's part of what they do to try to best manage the resources that are available to them.

[epee1]

Mauler,

Both your posts were extremely insightful and well written. Thank you for your insight. I've had the great fortune of having wonderful refs direct my bouts for the most part. The only neg. experience was at nationals one year when my ex-coach tried to ref my 3rd DE. Thankfully Phil Daily stepped in and diffused an ugly situation.

[Mauler]

Originally Posted by epee1

Thankfully Phil Daily stepped in and diffused an ugly situation.

Funny that you mention him. Guess from whom I learned a bulk of my attitude and sense of ethics in my formative years of refereeing as a little lad? I've had the fortune of receiving guidance and education from many great referees over the years, and I do my best not to let them down.

As for the situation you described, it seems that your former coach violated a very important "unofficial" rule about his duty as a referee. A referee who has the sense and guts to walk away from potentially troublesome bout is greatly prized and respected.

You're fortunate to have some fantastic professional referees in your neck of woods. Hard to go wrong fencing in an area with the likes of Greg Dilworth, Mary Frye, Charles Washburn and Suzanne Vogt.

[Peach]

Originally Posted by Mauler

You're fortunate to have some fantastic professional referees in your neck of woods. Hard to go wrong fencing in an area with the likes of Greg Dilworth, Mary Frye, Charles Washburn and Suzanne Vogt.

n.b. Thanks for the nice remarks about those folks, who are however all in the Philadelphia area--Pennsylvania's a big state.

[epee1]

Originally Posted by Peach

n.b. Thanks for the nice remarks about those folks, who are however all in the Philadelphia area--Pennsylvania's a big state.

True it is fairly large but the fencing community isn't. Mary's kicked my bum up and down the strip WAY too often. So I'm going to have to agree that I'm very lucky to have the quality of competitors available to me. After all, how else am I going to improve and gain some humility???