Italian weapons

[ReverseLunge]

Has anyone ever fenced someone using an Italian foil or epee with strap? What was it like fencing this person?

[Mauler]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

Has anyone ever fenced someone using an Italian foil or epee with strap? What was it like fencing this person?

First several years of my education in fencing (as a little child) was with Italian weapons. Compared to French or pistol grip, there's definitely more responsibility for the fingers to handle the work load. Unlike the other grips where fingers play both manipulation as well as stabilization, the wrist strap greatly aids in the stabilization while at the same time severely limiting the angle of play. That forces some fundamental changes in the play of the blade.

Mechanically, Italian Foil takes up a lot of Epee-like characteristics. Ideal on guard position for Italian weapon tend to be far more advanced. Defenses are made almost entirely by the guard and forte, and interestingly fingers come into play a lot more while parrying. Rather than angling the wrist altogether to create the Epee-like effect of a parry (like in opposition), entire forearm translates a little and thumb-index-middle-fingers are used to move the guard to make the defensive contact. And as soon as the contact is felt, all components relax and return to the original position with the exception of triceps which is now extending the arm. Keep in mind while all this is taking place, the pommel of the weapon is bound to your wrist.

In terms of available tactics, there's a lot more focus on the use of counterattack with opposition (bread and butter), remise (opportunistic), countertime (of more passive nature), glide/bind (with more focus earlier in the action), yielding parry (bread and butter in mid-phrase), etc. In contrast, "basic framework" of simple attack-parry-riposte doesn't favor this style of fencing. The primary distance of fencing actions and with respect to the target also has to be kept very small. Footwork can still be very elaborate, but its orientation is still from close distance. Certainly fighting from advance-lunge distance with the modern interpretation is out of the question.

The learning curve in using Italian weapons is a little more steep before any degree of success can be seen on the strip. But the educational value is definitely there. I've long since been weaned away from it. But I've learned a lot from that experience and it has given many insights that proved useful as I made a transition into teaching.

Hmmm..... I just realized AFTER typing this up, that you were asking about experience with fencing someone who's using an Italian weapon. Not what it's like to fence with one yourself. Well, now you know what it's like to be in his/her shoes. I gotta head out, so I'll have to catch up with this at a later time.

I can tell you this for now, though. Their fencing is based on extension-to-lunging distance with small variations. So you definitely want to keep your wits about you whenever you're entering or exiting that distance. Because that's where their focus is at, if you're not careful that's where you're going to be screwed. On the other hand, they have severe limitations on beyond-lunging and less-than-extension distances. The latter is more severe in Epee fencing. In terms of the blade work, as long as you pay a close attention to what's going on instead of taking things for granted, modern style works just fine at collecting points. In terms of the bladework, you might get taken aback by the tactile response when you're engaged. Their blade will "feel" a little weird. One thing to keep in mind is keep the bulk of your blade play in preparation phase rather than mid-action. You want to avoid blade play as much as possible once you go in and out of YOUR fencing distance.

[achilleus]

I've fenced several italian grip using fencers. I don't know if they we wearing a wrist strap at all. Is that crucial to your question?

[ReverseLunge]

Originally Posted by achilleus

I've fenced several italian grip using fencers. I don't know if they we wearing a wrist strap at all. Is that crucial to your question?

With strap. Must have been very hard to beat and bind them.

[Sildar]

The answer depends entirely on the individual. They might be a relatively normal modern sport fencer with an odd grip preference. They might also be a classically trained fencer who was taught traditional Italian technique. In any case, the fencer and their training is going to be much more important than the weapon they're holding. And even two fencers trained in an identical manner at the same school will still fence very differently.

That said, fencers with traditional Italian training will generally fence much like other classical fencers. The stereotype is that the traditional Italian school emphasizes powerful attacks on the blade and is more aggressive than the traditional French style, which, as a generalization, is fairly accurate.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

With strap. Must have been very hard to beat and bind them.

The first one I fenced was at my first tournament many ages ago. That was my only victory in the pool. That fencer was one of 7 to be eliminated in the first round.

The next few were all trained by one master, and quite honestly, the bouts were over quick. Real quick. Beating and taking the blade was easy, disengaging was even easier. Then again, I take everybody's blade.

There were two bouts in particular that I remember where the score was 15-5 or less within the first 3 minutes. Mostly moving them around and hitting them.

Sorry, that information is unlikely to answer your question...

[DangerMouse]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

With strap. Must have been very hard to beat and bind them.

Not hard to beat or bind at all. The strap stabilizes the weapon so it won't just wobble around your bind. It's like fencing someone with a death grip on the weapon.

[remise]

Watch your distance. If you happen to stray into their 'red' zone, you can end up zapped. It's like fencing someone with all the advantages of the French grip with a strap attached. Personally, I'm not used to fencing others with French grips - I'm only used to fencing fencers with pistol grips. So, for me, it was very disconcerting to be across from someone who had part of my "weaponry" if you would, in their arsenal.

[Mauler]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

With strap. Must have been very hard to beat and bind them.

OK, I'm back. Really slow day today.

Actually, if you understand how and why they do what they do, it's rather easy to use bind against Italian weapons. Very easy. If you don't, then you could run into some WEIRD surprises. Main thing to remember is when you play the blade engagement game, you have to abandon it as you're closing in. The Ace up the sleeve for a fencer using Italian weapon is that as the blade engagement gets closer and closer to their forte, the advantage of leverage turns in their favor VERY SUDDENLY. This is a very disconcerting sensation for those who are used to gaining the leverage and "just riding it to the touch". Half way into their "done deal" bind attack, they suddenly find themselves in their opponent's bind. You just have to be aware of the relative positions of the guards..... at all times.

Now that's one thing above all elese that an Italian Foilist is very good at. Knowing where the both blades at all times. Because of the rather unforgiving limitations placed on himself because of his chosen tool, he is trained to be extremely sensitive to where the two blades are in relation to each other. He has to be. He hasn't got much of a choice.

And that's where the greatest weakness in the system is, especially compared to how the modern fencing has been evolving. Let's forget about the weapon for a minute. What would you do (and what would your coach suggest) when you come against an opponent who has the following characteristics:

1. He remains comparatively immobile. He's moving, but mostly back and forth and even has a great rhythm to it enough to give any careless fencer a challenge in distance and timing. But you realize that he's generally immobile.

2. He's making a lot of deceptive moves, but you come to realize that his "real moves" are very localized. In other words, you identify the specific fencing distance he's really counting on, and you realize that's not changing at all.

3. He's constantly looking to make sure that he knows where your blade is, and it shows. You realize that he's really focusing on this above all else.

4. He's making kinds of blade contacts that are not likely to be correctly read by the referee. And he's not changing even after the referee's error.

Regardless of the chosen weapon, these are beginner/intermediate blunders modern fencers are trained early on to identify and respond to. To generalize, you're more likely to encounter this sort of "faults" in a fencer using an Italian weapon. With training and experience, he can become very good at hiding them, but these are inherent weaknesses that will always be there.

[Mauler]

Originally Posted by DangerMouse

Not hard to beat or bind at all. The strap stabilizes the weapon so it won't just wobble around your bind. It's like fencing someone with a death grip on the weapon.

A fencer who is properly trained in the use of Italian weapon is extremely slippery on the foible. He can take the French grip's advantage of finger control and take it up a notch because he can rely on the wrist strap to keep the weapon in his hand. On the other hand, because of his trained unwillingness to keep the guard moving (it's critical that he doesn't commit to a blade action until he's absolutely sure, and once he does he's betting everything he's got on it), it's very easy to find the middle and forte of his blade for a beat, prise-de-fer, bind, glide, whatnot.

Another problem when it comes to the blade actions in the modern arena. Italian stylist's classical response to your beat-attack is to counterbeat-attack, not parry-riposte. Statistically, he's not going to collect as many points on this as you are. The understanding and training shared by the modern referees don't lean toward that approach to fencing. He would be lucky if the referee even sees and awards the touch in his favor. What was once a bread-and-butter of a fencer's arsenal has been reduced to maybe 2-out-of-10-tries trick.

[striker]

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

Has anyone ever fenced someone using an Italian foil or epee with strap? What was it like fencing this person?

I will try to answer this question as best as I can. However I will not do
one thing in this post. I will not belittle any fencer who uses the Italian
blade and I will not make any disparaging comments about those fencing
masters who teach the old or the new school of Italian fencing.

The following are just personal observations and should not be taken
as criticism of anyone who uses the Italian blade, or studies the new or old
Italian school of fencing.

* There is nothing in the Italian blade that gives a distinct advantage
to the fencer who uses it. There is no hidden magical power in the Italian
blade. The fencer still has to deal with issues such as the weight of the
blade, how comfortable the blade fits in the hand, and how to control
the blade. Let's discuss these three points one at a time.

* The Italian blade in general has a lot of weight right behind the guard.
The bell guard, the arch, and the crossbar exert a heavy weight
on the fingers. The burden of heavy load right behind the bell guard
slows down all the fencing actions considerably and adds to the lack
of blade control.

* The Italian blade does not fit comfortably in the palm of the hand.
As a result of this, the Italian blade is not easy to control. The
thumb, the index, and the middle fingers are trapped right behind the
guard and they have to bear the heavy weight of the bell guard, arch, and
the crossbar. This only leaves two little fingers to hold the handle.
The two little fingers are usually not strong enough to hold
the handle and sometimes they can not wrap around the handle.
This is another reason that the fencer using the Italian blade has
difficulty controlling the blade.

* The Italian blade takes many many years to master and because of the
above mentioned reasons is diffcult to control. The strap acts as
a strong sixth finger and helps the two little fingers to hold the
handle. However this is a band aid solution to the bigger problem
of the Italian blade. Even with the wrist strap the handle of the
Italian blade does not fit comfortably and naturally into the fencer's hand.

* The fencer who uses the Italian blade is trained to use the weight of the
blade to his advantage. Attacks on the blade and envelopments are
two examples. The problem is that with the fast pace of today's
fencing and with techniques that emphasize the absence of the
blade, the fencer with an Italian foil does not have too many chances to
use the weight of the blade to his advantage. Also because of the
burden of weight on the fencer's hand, the parry and repost actions
tend to become slower. Parrying with a heavier weapon should give
the fencer an advantage IF he can move the blade fast enough
to parry the incoming attack. That is a big IF with the Italian blade.

* The wrist strap adds more stability to the weapon. However, the
wrist strap prevents some blade actions that use extreme angulation of the
wrist (specially the ones with hand in the pronation). Also, the wrist
strap diminishes the ability of the fencer to touch the opponent in
very close distances and during infighting.