heavy handed epee

[glowstix]

ok, time to get back to some technical discussions...

i really have trouble against people that have big strong actions that seem to smother my small, disengages. its like their parries are sooo big and sweeping but fast. when i fence these guys, my actions tend to get bigger and slower and my weapon arm tends to look like a rollercoaster when trying to get around the big powerful actions. technique goes completely out of the window. what i've been trying was to wait for their big actions to be completed which seems to open up target then launch my own attack, which sometimes work but other times my blade still gets smothered. i think its a timing issue.

what are some good strategies against people with these big overpowering parries and blade actions??

[great bowyer]

you may want to try to increase the distance, change your timing, and you can also look for patterns in their blade movements...what parries do they like to do the most. you can then use this to avoid the parries with distance, start your attack while they are moving (they can't change the direction of blade movement very easily), and finally, if they only use one or two parries, you will know exactly what they will do as you attack...this makes for easier disengage.

[veeco]

Yep, increase the distance, take smaller steps, make even smaller blade actions. And look for simple opportunities. Against this kind of people going straight in at the right time will most likely give you the touch 95% of the time.

A lot of times fencing against these people tends to bring out the worst in your fencing, simply because they have a "dirty" game. It tends to subconsciously make you fence dirtier. In these situations it's actually good to step back and fence simpler and force yourself to be cleaner.

Some people have a knack for bringing out the worst in your fencing, you have to be aware of them and take extra caution when fencing them.

[Cipher]

One of my coaches uses techniques like that to teach us. He's very fast and to slow down to the level of the beginning and intermediate students he often just makes his actions larger. To score touches on him during drills like that he emphasizes either distance and very small movements, making the hit on an advanced target with a counter-disengage against the large circular movements, or keep proper distance and take the blade foilble to your forte in opposition, scoring on a deeper target with more angulation. The only problem I found with the latter is that it is easy to fail at the opposition against a stronger opponent if he is actively trying to use his strength to his advantage. You could also just try a straight feint attack. Feint, let him parry big and find nothing and just reextend while he is still trying to bring his defense back up after his large movement.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by veeco

Yep, increase the distance, take smaller steps, make even smaller blade actions. And look for simple opportunities. Against this kind of people going straight in at the right time will most likely give you the touch 95% of the time..

Good stuff here ^

I am always surprised by conversations that seem to ask "My opponent is really good at X. How do I defeat X?"

As I see it, if your opponent is excellent at X, then don't try to defeat that element. If you do, you are feeding right into the strongest part of their game. This is exactly what you want to avoid.

Many years ago there was a fencer in my section who had a really excellent fleche attack. It was smooth, quick and well timed. Now this guy was not a great fencer (top-32's/top-16's at NAC's), but he had a really great action.

I lost to this guy 3-5 times (pools/de's) in a row at various regional competitions, over the course of a season, despite the fact that I was generally a better fencer.

The problem was that I knew he had a great fleche, and I was pretty sure that I could provoke him to do it. And I was right. I would set him up to attack, and he oblige by fleching and hitting me. I did the work. He got the point.

I was setting him up to do what he did best. Ooops!

Once I realized the problem, I was able to modify my approach and never lost to him again.

Originally Posted by veeco

A lot of times fencing against these people tends to bring out the worst in your fencing, simply because they have a "dirty" game. It tends to subconsciously make you fence dirtier. In these situations it's actually good to step back and fence simpler and force yourself to be cleaner.

Some people have a knack for bringing out the worst in your fencing, you have to be aware of them and take extra caution when fencing them..

Funny and true ^

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by glowstix

ok, time to get back to some technical discussions...

i really have trouble against people that have big strong actions that seem to smother my small, disengages. its like their parries are sooo big and sweeping but fast. when i fence these guys, my actions tend to get bigger and slower and my weapon arm tends to look like a rollercoaster when trying to get around the big powerful actions. technique goes completely out of the window. what i've been trying was to wait for their big actions to be completed which seems to open up target then launch my own attack, which sometimes work but other times my blade still gets smothered. i think its a timing issue.

what are some good strategies against people with these big overpowering parries and blade actions??

Have you tried just being relaxed and letting them take the blade? Generally when someone's attacks or parries are that large and strong, all one needs to do is be relaxed and roll off the blade.

If you're trying to go into them, it could be you're too tight, or the timing is off as you suggest, but if you're patient, feed them the blade, and then when they find your blade with their large action, all you have to do is a very small action to roll off and hit them...

The best part about such an approach is that the heavy handed fencer usually just tries harder and faster to hit you when scored upon in such a manner. Which just makes it easier to hit them...

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by achilleus

Have you tried just being relaxed and letting them take the blade? Generally when someone's attacks or parries are that large and strong, all one needs to do is be relaxed and roll off the blade.

If you're trying to go into them, it could be you're too tight, or the timing is off as you suggest, but if you're patient, feed them the blade, and then when they find your blade with their large action, all you have to do is a very small action to roll off and hit them...

The best part about such an approach is that the heavy handed fencer usually just tries harder and faster to hit you when scored upon in such a manner. Which just makes it easier to hit them...

very interesting, i've never tried that..thanks

[SamIam]

Sounds like me the year I was obliged to fence epee rather than sabre. Not having had any epee training I just proceeded to fence it as sabre, with big (for epee) actions, parries, fleches etc.

For the most part it worked great and I was very successful in making my opponent fence my game. It failed spectacularly against fencers who just ignored my pyrotechnics and fenced a patient, finesse (proper) style of epee.

Lucky for me there were more of the former than the latter and I did relatively well. Needless to say, though, it didn't really make me a better epee fencer and I was happy to return to sabre the following year.

So I would have to agree with the other posts here, fence your own game, keep your actions small, precise and economic.