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WhipLash · 03-08-2005, 10:36 PM

this may seem obvious to you pros but i'm juz starting out at fencing.

anyway, was wondering if a distance parry counts as a parry. like for example, A and B at lunging distance.........B lunges, A bounces back out of reach.......A performs balestra and hits B but 2 lights go off cos B has not fully retracted his arm. So if the distance parry counts, A has successfully parried B's attack and counterattack so pt should go to A. If not, then A didn't parry and B still has ROW and B gets the point?

thanks

AndrewH · 03-08-2005, 10:40 PM

There's such thing as a distance parry, but it's not called as such. In the situation you described, B's attack fell short, then A's riposte hit valid, giving the touch to A.

noodle · 03-08-2005, 10:46 PM

what andrew said.
see this thread for my answer to the question.

WhipLash · 03-08-2005, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewH

There's such thing as a distance parry, but it's not called as such. In the situation you described, B's attack fell short, then A's riposte hit valid, giving the touch to A.

however even though B's attack fell short, his point is still in line and since it's a "fall short" instead of "distance parry" then a parry has not been made and he still has ROW?

oh and can someone explain stop-hit and wats in time?

and is turning around after a fleche to continue fencing allowed? won't the wire get in the way? wats the reason a fleche should be to the unarmed side? and i thought you have to run thru and can't do riposte?

sorry i'm really new and blur abt this.

noodle · 03-08-2005, 11:04 PM

no. you can only have right of way if you're developing/launching an attack or holding point in line. since B finished his attack and isn't starting a new one and hasn't established point in line yet (he has to establish it one fencing tempo away from his opponent, which he is not in the case you've given), he doesn't have right of way.

stop hits...stop hits...i'm not too good with defining it, maybe someone else can clarify, but a stop hit is a counterattack or attack in preparation. for a stop hit to be in time, you have to be doing it into one of your opponent's feints/withdrawls (provided they also hit you), not when they're launching the final attack.

turning around after a fleche isn't permitted if you're the one fleching. you can turn around and hit if you're the one being fleched upon, provided you took a parry and you're turning to make your immediate riposte. you don't "have" to fleche to the unarmed side. i do it to either side. if you fleche and run past, thats all you get. just the attack.

WhipLash · 03-08-2005, 11:22 PM

ok thanks got it.

in that case how do you do a stop in when your opponent fleches?

if you can't turn, can you stay and infight? but that would mean you and your opp are back to back right?

thanks

noodle · 03-08-2005, 11:27 PM

no, you CAN turn if your opponent fleches you
the rules say that if you parry your opponent's fleche, you get your one direct riposte, no matter where your opponent is. so you can turn and hit as they're running by, if you'd like. but you can't turn and chase them down and then hit.

WhipLash · 03-08-2005, 11:32 PM

sorry...typo error.

i meant how to do stop hit when opp fleches.

so after i fleche i can't stop behind my opp and infight?

Mauler · 03-08-2005, 11:55 PM

Looking at only B's own perspective, the light came on in his remise or continuation. However, putting both fencers into context, the actions are B's attack does not arrive, A's attack (now riding on a completely new timing) arrives, and B's counterattack (to A's attack) arrives. A's attack has priority.

It's not a parry-riposte situation because there was no parry. It's easier to train referees and fencers to look at it that way because it's more intuitive to consider one's reaction to a threat as an entirely defensive action, rather than denying opponent the initiative and in return setting up for their own timing. Either ways, at a lower level, the Right-Left of awarding the point will go the right way whatever the terminology the referee uses and fencers understand as long as he/she keeps track of who's losing the right-of-way when.

Because of the way you described the situation, B's light couldn't have been lit up with a point-in-line. You described B's first action as an attack that failed, not setting up a line. And you also stated that "B has not fully retracted his arm," which implies that he's already in the process of returning to on guard. Only way the point can be correctly awarded to B in the situation you described is if A really really screws up.

As for the fleche, some would argue that when a correctly executed fleche ends, you should still be in front of your opponent, relaxed and on guard. After having landed your attack, of course.

A certain former Russian Olympic Epee medalist I lived with for a couple of summers was a firm believer of that philosophy. However, it seems that the topic you bring up has more to do with passing.

Once you have passed your opponent (say, fleche and you continue to run past him), you no longer have the right to continue fencing. Or rather, you can no longer make a valid touch after passing your opponent if you were the one who did the actual passing. Your opponent, however, has the right to make one, immediate action against you even if it means turning completely around to face you. This part of the rule is the primary drive for training fencers to continue running after a botched fleche, in order to escape the reach of valid counterattack or riposte.

There are great many things to be considered when it comes to making a choice on which side to do the passing. Your opponent's right/left-handedness, relative positions on the strip with respect to lateral boundary you're near as well as the rear limit, experience of the referee you're dealing with (crafty Epee fencers are extremely sensitive to this infomation and they know how to use it), choice of the blade action you want to set up for the final action, the retaliatory options your opponent has (considering his strengths and weaknesses), etc etc etc.

Naturally, there's no set rule that limits you to pass only to the right or left of your opponent. There are, however, many "beginner's crutch" or rules-of-thumb that are prudent to maintain until the fencers reach a level where they have enough understanding of what is going on in their own fencing that they can start varying the parameters and experiment.

WhipLash · 03-09-2005, 12:03 AM

thanks for the comprehensive reply

so if i fleche but he parries it, but i lend in front of him, we can still continue fencing right? but how do you check all that inertia and stop in front of him?

also, how to do a stop hit when your opp fleches?

thanks

noodle · 03-09-2005, 12:53 AM

if you don't pass your opponent when you fleche, the action doesn't stop. how you stop, though, is up to you.

and you can stop hit when they fleche. you just have to hit them and not get hit in time... a fleche is a direct attack, there's no preparation, you just have to hit and not get hit to be successful.

WhipLash · 03-09-2005, 01:00 AM

ok...any suggestions on how to stop? and how in the world do you hit and avoid being hit? if both lights go off then its the flecher's pt right?

noodle · 03-09-2005, 01:13 AM

right, both lights, person with right of way (in this case, the flecher) gets the touch.

how to stop? try not running full tilt. practice fleches where you only go for two steps and return to on guard.
how to hit and not get hit? well don't just stand there. duck, twist, pull your body back and stick out your arm, or just time it really really well.

WhipLash · 03-09-2005, 01:19 AM

time it really well? as in somehow hit him before he hits me? i thought tat is quite impossible cos if you can hit him then his fleche will hit you and he'll get the point.

as for stopping, i was taught tat the hit should be made before the rear foot hits the ground, so by then it'll be too close to stop. any of you able to stop in front of opp?

noodle · 03-09-2005, 01:27 AM

yes, you can time it well. trust me. hit, retreat, get hit, but the box times out, only your light is on.

as for stopping, you should hit when your rear foot hits the ground. if you're doing a fleche properly, you should be able to stop comfortably provided you didn't put too much power into it. have you ever tried this on someone who's standing still? i know i fleche all the time and don't pass people.

WhipLash · 03-09-2005, 01:39 AM

ah....i see. thanks alot!

rsy · 03-09-2005, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noodle

turning around after a fleche isn't permitted if you're the one fleching. you can turn around and hit if you're the one being fleched upon, provided you took a parry and you're turning to make your immediate riposte. you don't "have" to fleche to the unarmed side. i do it to either side. if you fleche and run past, thats all you get. just the attack.

No parry is required to turn and hit your opponent. t.21 provides:

When touches are made as a fencer passes his opponent, the touch made immediately is valid; a touch made after passing his opponent by the competitor who has made the passing movement is annulled, but the touch made immediately, even when turning round, by the competitor who has been subjected to the offensive action, is valid.

-r

Ryne · 03-09-2005, 12:33 PM

It's a lunge, A backs up. Both have completed an action.
Ballestra is an attack. A does not move, therefore it's attack/counterattack touch right to B.

A didn't take the blade therefore B's new attack should have right of way.

TooLoftheDeviL · 03-09-2005, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryne

It's a lunge, A backs up. Both have completed an action.
Ballestra is an attack. A does not move, therefore it's attack/counterattack touch right to B.

A didn't take the blade therefore B's new attack should have right of way.

Might wanna re-read the example and switch those letters around

***Craig*** · 03-09-2005, 02:18 PM

Accessing the Fencing.Net wayback machine:

Article: "What is a Distance Parry" appeared in May 2004 on Fencing.Net:
http://www.fencing101.com/content/view/245/35/

Quote:

Many fencers and referees have heard the term "distance parry" to describe a fencing action. This action is composed of a fencer's defense by retreating out of distance, after the opponent has begun a direct attack, causing the direct attack falls short.

It is not, in fact a parry. Article t.7 states " the parry is a defensive action made with the weapon to prevent a offensive action from arriving." This action is more akin to an evasion. Causing the opponent's point to miss by using carefully timed footwork.

The concept of an attack failing because it falls short has been around for decades, primarily in saber (see t.75), where the end of the attack is specified in the rules. The idea that this could also be the case in foil is somewhat new, but it rapidly becoming a staple tactic at the highest levels. The relevant rule is: t.56 "(a) Every attack, that is every initial offensive action, which is correctly executed must be parried or completely avoided..."

The referee should never use the term "distance parry" nor the term repost in conjunction with this type of action. Rather, the referee should call "attack, No. Counter-attack. Touch."

The ensuing discussion was held on the message boards here:
http://www.fencing101.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11265

Enjoy.

Craig