USFA: masks now illegal?

[Dee EffEll]

This from the USFA web site:

"The US Fencing Association Executive Committee has passed a motion stating that 'No fencer may wear any rigid covering outside the jacket or knickers.'"

OK, so taken literally, this means I can't wear a mask anymore. (It *is* a rigid covering worn outside the jacket or knickers.) Since that is patently absurd, they can't mean what they say.

I do understand this relates to the use of chest protectors in foil, and the attendant FIE "controversy" about their use.

So I have a few questions:

1. If an executive committe passes a motion, what affect does that have? Is it automatically adoped into the USFA rule book? For what tournaments? Effective when? And what is the penalty for violation?

2. Does this apply to all fencers, or just foil? Sabre? Epee?

3. This seems to bar the use of more than chest protectors. It prohibits fencers from wearing any rigid "device" including knee braces and the like, outside the uniform.

4. What is (and I know this is a dangerous question) "rigid?" Commensurate with the other rules in the book, I assume it means "whatever the director says it is."

[mrbiggs]

5. Isn't this something that a comittee should think of before writing it into the rules?

I realize that these are all part time workers, etc., etc., but if you're going to change the Rules of Fencing, you should probably make sure there aren't any loopholes. (Or anti-loopholes, where they outlaw something dumb. Like this.)

[CvilleFencer]

This is a rather amusing take on the new rules change. I had thought of the rigid knee brace before as a few fencers in my division wear them. It is no real surprise to me that masks are now banned officially as all the ones in use have been against the regs for some time. The rules on masks have said for a while now that the mesh of a mask may not extend below the chin and that the wires must be externally AND internally insulated by a plastic/polymer type material that is resistant to chipping. I have been trying to figure out for a while how to get my mask to stay on without putting it on so that it fits under my chin and how to get insulation inside the metal wire of the mask mesh without some kind of molecular bonding taking place and just have not been able to do it.

I think the next time a novice fencer says something to the effect of "Show me where it says X in the rulebook" or "My arm was extending so it does not matter that I was going backwards running from him for all I was worth since I fully extended first" instead of trying to explain the rules to him I will just not let him fence unless he has a non-rigid mask that does not extend below the chin and is internally and externally insulated with a plastic type material that can pass a punch test. Got to love the wisdom of the FIE.

[CvilleFencer]

Okay, so I will stop trying to be funny since I am not very good at it and attempt to be helpful in answering your questions the best I can.

Originally Posted by Dee EffEll

So I have a few questions:

1. If an executive committe passes a motion, what affect does that have? Is it automatically adoped into the USFA rule book? For what tournaments? Effective when? And what is the penalty for violation?

In this case it was effective when it was passed, not when it was posted, so if has been the law of the land for at least a few weeks now. The rule is technically in effect for all USFA tourneys. As to the penalties, there was some discussion about this a while back before the rule was well known. Opinions seem to range from warn the fencer and tell them to wear it appropriatly all the way up to blackcarding them for cheating (in foil at least) as it could be seen as an attempt to gain an unfair advantage. Since there are no real "free" warnings from a ref I think the technical answer would be to card them and make them change, just as you would for any bit of non-conforming equipment presented on the strip. If they complain, refuse to comply or take an overly long amount of time you can start handing out further cards based on their actions.

2. Does this apply to all fencers, or just foil? Sabre? Epee?

IIRC the FIE rule is foil only but the USFA rule seems to apply to all weapons.

3. This seems to bar the use of more than chest protectors. It prohibits fencers from wearing any rigid "device" including knee braces and the like, outside the uniform.

Technically yes it does bar the use of such devices, but in effect I would not worry about it. No judge worth his 10 or higher is going to keep you from wearing your knee or ankle brace or your mask as long as it does not emmit electric signals, contain communications equipment, cover target area or present a safety concern such as being covered with spikes...

4. What is (and I know this is a dangerous question) "rigid?" Commensurate with the other rules in the book, I assume it means "whatever the director says it is."

rig·id ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rjd)
adj.
Not flexible or pliant; stiff.
Not moving; fixed.
Marked by a lack of flexibility; rigorous and exacting: “We have watered down a rigid training... until we now have an educational diet in many of our public high schools that nourishes neither the classes nor the masses” (Agnes Meyer).
Scrupulously maintained or performed: rigid discipline. See Synonyms at stiff.

In short it is anything that is stiff, hard or ressonably unyeilding. I guess I can't wear my vaseline covered vambraces to the strip anymore...

[Mauler]

Originally Posted by Dee EffEll

1. If an executive committe passes a motion, what affect does that have? Is it automatically adoped into the USFA rule book? For what tournaments? Effective when? And what is the penalty for violation?

This is the unwritten system in place for disseminating information, particularly on the matter of implementing and enforcing the "unwritten" rule:

On the first and second day of every NAC/JO/Nationals, FOC representative informs the referees present at the breakfast meeting of any new rulings that have been passed. Usually these topics have already been communicated in advance to the referees who were hired for the event. Sometimes there's no prior notice. Then they "calibrate" the referees on how to apply such rulings with examples. What is discussed in that meeting is the law of the land for the duration of the event.

Network of national coaches, the "regulars" of the events, referees, parents, etc spread the word in the matter of minutes afterward. Those in the know are usually already aware of the possibility of adaptation of new rulings. They just may not know EXACTLY how it will be applied for that particular event. And they gather that piece of information by finding the right people and asking early in the day. There may be written posts throughout the venue (by the Bout Committee table, by the seeding posts, at the door, etc) to inform everyone else. There may even be a verbal announcement.

Fencers report to the strips as do the referees. This is the last chance for the FOC and body of referees to amicably disseminate the information to those who REALLY need to know -- the fencers who are ready to fence. Referees use that chance to inform the fencers how he/she will be applying the rules. There is a small buffer in terms of timing where an uninformed fencer still has a chance to rectify any problems.

i.e.) Referee discovers during the initial check-ins that a fencer isn't in compliance with the "new rule," the fencer still has the time to comply while the referee is taking his/her time checking in the other fencers in the pool.

Since first pool bout is generally between the two highest seeds, they tend to be very well infomed and "know the drill," quick to adapt. And the uninformed, nonitentional offender has at least one bout's duration to correct the situation.

Most of the referees regularly working at the national events take an active part in their respective Division/Section/Regions when they go back. They are the usual local Bout Committees, Chief Referees, coaches, etc. And they continue the role of spreading the word and educating the local fencing communities on the ever-evolving organism that is Fencing Rules.

[t('.'t)]

Lol! I once fenced without a mask! Omg! Now i have one eye! Omg! Lol! I dont have good depth perception now! Omg! Omg! I just ran into a wall! Lol!

[Mauler]

As for the penalties, if the referee handled the pool in the manner I described then there's less likelihood of actual penalty depending on the circumstances.

Leaning towards the worst case scenario, save from Black Card, perhaps the "offending" fencer reported to the strip late and already had a Red Card. Referee does a rushed job at checking in the fencer, only to discover after the fencer is already hooked up and presenting the weapon for testing that he is wearing the "Bro" just beneath the lame, completely unaware of the new ruling. For this unfortunate fencer, the first notification might be a Red Card (since he already has a card in this bout) for non-conforming equipment or delaying the bout (however the referee wants to call it). Then another Red Card for undressing on the strip. Surprised, upset and flustered, he takes an unusually long time to correct the situation and causes a further delay in the bout. Or perhaps even something as simple as his first weapon failing the weight test. Another Red Card.

An unfortunate case I can think of where the "system" fails due to the unusual circumstances. In this situation, the fencer has essentially lost his bout because the information passed onto him until it was too late.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by Dee EffEll

This from the USFA web site:

"The US Fencing Association Executive Committee has passed a motion stating that 'No fencer may wear any rigid covering outside the jacket or knickers.'"

OK, so taken literally, this means I can't wear a mask anymore. (It *is* a rigid covering worn outside the jacket or knickers.) Since that is patently absurd, they can't mean what they say.

Or, they could mean wearing it on the outside of your jacket or knickers ... as in, wearing something rigid on your chest or upper leg = illegal. Wearing something rigid on your head or shin = legal (unless you've got oddly fitting equipment).

Originally Posted by Dee EffEll

3. This seems to bar the use of more than chest protectors. It prohibits fencers from wearing any rigid "device" including knee braces and the like, outside the uniform.

Why would you wear a knee brace outside the uniform? Knee braces are fitted and designed to be worn directly on the knee ... wearing it on the outside of the breeches is a good way of ensuring that it's not going to do the job it's supposed to do.

[Ryne]

You don't wear your mask outside of your jacket or lame, you wear it on your head. Therefore the mask is legal because it is not a 'rigid covering' described in the rule

The announcement for the rule specifically denoted the rigid covering as chest protectors.

[oiuyt]

As Ryne says, the mask (at least the rigid parts of it) are not outside of the jacket or knickers. The bib shouldn't be rigid.

EC generated rules changes go into effect when the EC says they do (generally immediately). They stay in effect until ratified or not by the BoD. In this case the rule went into effect January 12th and was confirmed at the BoD meeting in February. It was widely posted at both the January NAC and JO's, discussed here in both January, and more extensively in February.

Rules changes and updates on interpretations are disseminated to referees through several means, including a semi-regular (~every 6 weeks) referee newsletter (email), and meetings daily at every national competition. Additionally they are disseminated to the membership as a whole through postings at national competitions, USFA newsletters (both paper and electronic), and postings on the USFA website (generally woefully slow, granted). And, of course, the primary method, word of mouth, as those in the know spread the news to those less connected. This is where it really pays to know who to listen to and who is likely to a) know the news, b) know it correctly, c) be able to go back to sources for answers to follow-up questions.

-B :)

[Inquartata]

The rings to which we clip the body cord end of the floor cable? Rigid. Parts of the body cord itself? Rigid. Club patches? Possessed of a certain degree of rigidity, many of them. Those elbow protectors for sabre fencers? Somewhat rigid, and if they are not, the buckles on them are.

This is what comes of trying to write universal rules in haste.

[edew]

Originally Posted by Mauler

This is the unwritten system in place for disseminating information, particularly on the matter of implementing and enforcing the "unwritten" rule:

On the first and second day of every NAC/JO/Nationals, FOC representative informs the referees present at the breakfast meeting of any new rulings that have been passed. Usually these topics have already been communicated in advance to the referees who were hired for the event. Sometimes there's no prior notice. Then they "calibrate" the referees on how to apply such rulings with examples. What is discussed in that meeting is the law of the land for the duration of the event.
[...]

In practice, the FOC person (or persons) would saying something like, "So, everyone knows about the new do-dad rule, right? Good." So the few of us who may have heard about the rule, but not clear about how to apply it or when to apply it, might ask, "How and when do we apply this rule?" And the FOC person would say, "It's clear..." And nothing of substance is actually disseminated.

Since first pool bout is generally between the two highest seeds, they tend to be very well infomed and "know the drill," quick to adapt. And the uninformed, nonitentional offender has at least one bout's duration to correct the situation.
[...]

Since the fencers are placed into the pools in a random order, there is no guarantee that the two highest fencers compete first.

[Damon Scaggs]

There really aren't that many emergency rule changes made during the season. At national competitions, the rules changes for the year are distributed with your confirmation materials. There is no reason why a fencer would not know about it.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by Damon Scaggs

the rules changes for the year are distributed with your confirmation materials. There is no reason why a fencer would not know about it.

That's all good if you're Catholic... what about everyone else?

[Damon Scaggs]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

That's all good if you're Catholic... what about everyone else?

http://www.usfencing.org/Forms/Rules2004Supl.pdf works also. The information is readily available. It took me all of two minutes to find it.

[Go? Fencing?]

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

That's all good if you're Catholic... what about everyone else?

Jews have Confirmation too.

[Dee EffEll]

All very interesting responses. Some comments:

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

I think the next time a novice fencer says something to the effect of "Show me where it says X in the rulebook" or "My arm was extending so it does not matter that I was going backwards running from him for all I was worth since I fully extended first" instead of trying to explain the rules to him I will just not let him fence unless he has a non-rigid mask that does not extend below the chin and is internally and externally insulated with a plastic type material that can pass a punch test.

A good point. Fencers that do not conform to the rules should be penalized according to the rules. I also agree that interpretation of the rules is necessary, since the rules are generally poorly written. I hope that we can also agree that we should not continue to make poorly written rules because all the other rules are badly written too.

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

In this case it was effective when it was passed, not when it was posted, so if has been the law of the land for at least a few weeks now. The rule is technically in effect for all USFA tourneys.

Ah. So if a fencer broke the rule in a USFA tourney some weeks ago, will any classification gained/renewed be revoked?

IOW, what is the process by which fencing rules are adopted by the USFA? Posting on the web site?

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

Technically yes it does bar the use of such devices, but in effect I would not worry about it. No judge worth his 10 or higher is going to keep you from wearing your knee or ankle brace or your mask as long as it does not emmit electric signals, contain communications equipment, cover target area or present a safety concern such as being covered with spikes...

I guess I can't really quibble, but we thought the same thing about printed names on uniforms that were 1.5" high until they started hannding out red cards at Richmond.

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

rig·id ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rjd)
adj.
Not flexible or pliant; stiff.
Not moving; fixed.
Marked by a lack of flexibility; rigorous and exacting: “We have watered down a rigid training... until we now have an educational diet in many of our public high schools that nourishes neither the classes nor the masses” (Agnes Meyer).
Scrupulously maintained or performed: rigid discipline. See Synonyms at stiff.

In short it is anything that is stiff, hard or ressonably unyeilding. I guess I can't wear my vaseline covered vambraces to the strip anymore...

Can't wait until someone designs a rigid lame. It will sell like hotcakes.

Originally Posted by Ryne

You don't wear your mask outside of your jacket or lame, you wear it on your head. Therefore the mask is legal because it is not a 'rigid covering' described in the rule

The announcement for the rule specifically denoted the rigid covering as chest protectors.

There are two places equipment can be worn. If it isn't inside the uniform, it must be outside of it. You most definitely wear a mask outside the uniform. The rule didn't say "over" it said "outside." Fairly, I am complaining about the choice of words.

I have worn a knee brace outside the knickers. A teammate of mine continues to do so. It is now illegal? Can I make the ref make him take it off? If I remove something that makes him comfortable, I gain an advantage, so why wouldn't I? (Obviously, because it is morally wrong to put an opponent at physical risk in a sporting event. But that's just me...)

Originally Posted by oiuyt

As Ryne says, the mask (at least the rigid parts of it) are not outside of the jacket or knickers.

You wear your bib inside the jacket?

Originally Posted by oiuyt

EC generated rules changes go into effect when the EC says they do (generally immediately). They stay in effect until ratified or not by the BoD. In this case the rule went into effect January 12th and was confirmed at the BoD meeting in February. It was widely posted at both the January NAC and JO's, discussed here in both January, and more extensively in February.

Can't beleive Craig's site, interesting as it may be, is regulatory for the sport.

Originally Posted by Inquartata

The rings to which we clip the body cord end of the floor cable? Rigid. Parts of the body cord itself? Rigid. Club patches? Possessed of a certain degree of rigidity, many of them. Those elbow protectors for sabre fencers? Somewhat rigid, and if they are not, the buckles on them are.

This is what comes of trying to write universal rules in haste.

Agreed. Writing a rule for chest protectors is easy:

"No foil fencer may wear a protective device or other contrivance between the lame and jacket." We could even make it broad: "No fencer may employ the use of any equipment that, in the opinion of the director, interferes with the proper functioning of the scoring devices." Leave it to the USFOC to tell us what this is. Done.

Originally Posted by Damon Scaggs

There really aren't that many emergency rule changes made during the season. At national competitions, the rules changes for the year are distributed with your confirmation materials. There is no reason why a fencer would not know about it.

Nothing about it in my Denver packet.

Originally Posted by Damon Scaggs

http://www.usfencing.org/Forms/Rules2004Supl.pdf works also. The information is readily available. It took me all of two minutes to find it.

Found nothing in that document about chest protectors.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by Dee EffEll

I guess I can't really quibble, but we thought the same thing about printed names on uniforms that were 1.5" high until they started hannding out red cards at Richmond.

Somehow I think that handing out a card for the size of the name on the back of the jacket has fewer legal implications (liability if injury occurs) than forcing a fencer to remove a knee brace does.

If a referee has enough brain cells to pass the written test, they ought to be smart enough not to force somebody to remove a brace.

Originally Posted by Dee EffEll

There are two places equipment can be worn. If it isn't inside the uniform, it must be outside of it. You most definitely wear a mask outside the uniform. The rule didn't say "over" it said "outside." Fairly, I am complaining about the choice of words.

'No fencer may wear any rigid covering outside the jacket or knickers,' is what you claim was said. Quibbling over words se