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Katman · 03-07-2005, 08:54 PM

Say that you are fencing and you know your opponent has a bad body part (bad knee, bad ankle, whatever) or is otherwise physically impared with something such as a hangover.

Would you exploit those injuries during your bout? Such as aiming a rather hard hit to your opponent's injured kneecap? Or by closing distance and aiming a bell-punch to your opponent's queasy stomach?

Yes, it's a checkbox poll and it's flawed. Please vote and please don't vote for everything.

Edit: Votes are not public, so feel free to be honest.

Ryne · 03-07-2005, 09:04 PM

I wouldn't be dirty like that. Although if someone had a bad ankle or knee, I'd run him up and down the strip though...

noodle · 03-07-2005, 09:08 PM

depends on your definition of exploit, i suppose. lets put it like this: i'm not going to do anything to hurt anyone if i can help it.

mrbiggs · 03-07-2005, 09:47 PM

I voted no, but now that I remember, I once fenced someone who I knew was having some minor knee injuries. I specifically concentrated on keeping good footwork, knowing that he wouldn't be able to keep up. I won. I guess I did take advantage of his injury, but not in a way that was harmful to him, and I didn't even take advantage of it directly, I just changed my game a little.

prototoast · 03-07-2005, 10:15 PM

I voted yes, but that was before you posted your description. I would not try to hurt my opponent in any way. What I would do is fence in such a way that might exploit these weaknesses. If a fencer has a sore leg, I might try to make more movement figuring that would give me some advantage. If the opponent had a sore arm, I might work more with bladework. I would not intentionally hurt my opponent or aim for a sore spot, no matter how important the bout was.

Requiem · 03-07-2005, 10:18 PM

I'll keep fencing in a match during tournament if I have an injury. My opponent has a right to win through any means necessary. Fighting in general is about knowing your opponents weakness. I'd expect someone to take full advantage of my injury because I'd take full advantage of theirs.

CvilleFencer · 03-07-2005, 10:24 PM

I voted no since some of the examples are not only sleazey fencing but cardable offenses. I am however not so honor bound or nice guyish that I would not take full legal advantage of it... If my opponents having knee/leg problems then I am going to play up footwork. Hurt or weakened hand/arm? Time to work on those takes, binds and evelopments. I guess I do not see this sort of thing as any differant than taking advantage of strength or reach over your opponent.

In short I would no cheat to exploit the injury or cause further or greater harm, but I would adapt my game to give me the advange while maximizing their weakness.

***Craig*** · 03-07-2005, 10:52 PM

What c'ville said. If I know my opponent has a weakness, I will exploit it. I won't go in and bell-punch them or "sweep the leg" though.

Craig

Victor · 03-07-2005, 11:30 PM

Inflict injury with malice aforethought -- no.

Short of that, however... I assume the guy is capable of making responsible adult decisions for his own welfare.

LUDICROUS · 03-07-2005, 11:39 PM

I act under the assumption that my opponent comes to the piste to fence. If they have a bad leg, they can't expect me to NOT run them up and down like crazy. You come to fence on your own steam. No ones forcing you to.

Katman · 03-08-2005, 12:46 AM

OK groovy, these were just the responses I was hoping I'd hear so far. I suppose I should have specified 'sleazy' or 'not sleazy.'

Coup de Grace · 03-08-2005, 12:46 AM

Agreed. If my opponent has an injury that may limit their ability, I'll try to adjust my game to exploit it. That is reasonable and understandable. They don't get a pass because of a foot brace.
But, I would never purposefully target their injury with my weapon. That is cheap and unsportsman-like.

RebelFencer · 03-08-2005, 02:31 AM

I'm gonna have to join in on the choir. I will do anything within legal means to defeat an opponent and exploit their weaknesses. If I accidentally hurt them, I am sorry for that, not that I fenced to win. For example: I fenced someone at Divisionals whose hand/wrist was hurt, I didn't know this. So I proceeded to do binds. It hurt his wrist, that wasn't my intention...my intention was to get the touch. So in essence, I'm going to fence my game no matter the hinderance my opponent may have and I'd expect the same in return. I keep a legal game with no dirty shots or anything, but I fence to win regardless.

epeefencer74 · 03-08-2005, 04:09 AM

I would exploit an opponent's known weakness, but I would do it legeally. Bell punching and sweeping is not what I would consider legeal, however placing hard point hits to injury sites is well within my purview. E.g. hits to injured knee or wrist.
Also if I know an opponent isn't as fit and has trouble with long drawn out points, I would run him up and down the piste as much as possible.

Welted 24/7 · 03-08-2005, 08:39 AM

Like everyone else, I expect the guy at the other end of the strip to know what he can and can't do. If he steps onto the strip, then he obviously thinks he's in good enough shape to fence, so I'm going to run him up and down like a racehorse. Otherwise, that's just cheating.

esskreemr · 03-08-2005, 09:50 AM

Causing deliberate injury on the strip not only a morally bankrupt way to win, it's also a good way to get a retaliation hit. In addition, what does it prove? To say cheaters never win is naive, but what have they won? Don't get me wrong, I love to win, and I try to win whenever possible, this includes exploiting the shortcomings of others such as reach, footwork, fitness level,etc. but when I win, I want it to be because of my skill, not because of some fluke.

Mauler · 03-08-2005, 10:36 AM

When you step up to the strip, you're responsible for doing your very best. Or rather, doing things that are best in your interest. You have to assess your own strengths and weaknesses as well as your opponents' to say the least. Same goes for everyone else around you, including other fencers waiting around, the referees, even the strip equipment and tournament organizers. Smart fencers put EVERYTHING into account when they formulate their game plan for the day. Anything that affects your opponents' fencing is something you're responsible for identifying and utilizing if possible.

And yes, you're just as responsible to pull that off within the bounds of the rules. Even that standard isn't set in stone by no means.

grotto · 03-08-2005, 11:52 AM

No, I would not go the extra mile to worsen an injury my oponent has. e.g. aiming at a bum knee etc. That said if they get on the strip all is fair game. if my shot is to the knee, mask, newly pierced nipple (never saw a guy drop faster...) so be it. If they get tired easily, run em, weak hand, beat their blade alot. taking advantage of an opponents weaknesses is part of the game trying to cause injury to win is not.

DanInMI · 03-08-2005, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katman

Say that you are fencing and you know your opponent has a bad body part (bad knee, bad ankle, whatever) or is otherwise physically impared with something such as a hangover.

Would you exploit those injuries during your bout? Such as aiming a rather hard hit to your opponent's injured kneecap? Or by closing distance and aiming a bell-punch to your opponent's queasy stomach?

Yes, it's a checkbox poll and it's flawed. Please vote and please don't vote for everything.

Edit: Votes are not public, so feel free to be honest.

Wait a minute....your exampless are not "exploiting an injury," they are just plain unsportsmanlike.

When I answered the poll i answered "Yes, even if I don't consider the bout to be important." I hadn't read these examples.

I would consider forcing my opponent to move up and down the strip a lot on his sore knee to be "exploiting an injury." attacking in 6 if he is sore and has a hard time lifting his arm would be "exploiting and injury." Attacking low might be effective if he has a sore back, that would be exploiting an injury.

I don't think punching him in the stomach qualifies as exploiting an injury.

Cipher · 03-08-2005, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanInMI

Wait a minute....your exampless are not "exploiting an injury," they are just plain unsportsmanlike.

When I answered the poll i answered "Yes, even if I don't consider the bout to be important." I hadn't read these examples.

I would consider forcing my opponent to move up and down the strip a lot on his sore knee to be "exploiting an injury." attacking in 6 if he is sore and has a hard time lifting his arm would be "exploiting and injury." Attacking low might be effective if he has a sore back, that would be exploiting an injury.

I don't think punching him in the stomach qualifies as exploiting an injury.

I agree with this. I don't have a problem using someone's condition against them, that's just the way competitive sports are. Sometimes people have to compete at less than 100%. If a competitor is injured for the olympics, the other athletes don't take it easy on him. Actively seeking to worsen an existing condition through physical assault is just wrong though. It's unsportsmanlike, totally against the honor of the sport, and I would consider it cheating in the worst way.

Although, with the example of the hangover, I might aim for mask shots a little more often than I would otherwise. Since that is a self-imposed condition, I wouldn't have much sympathy for it.
*hic* "that bottle of vodka just jumped down my throat, it's not my fault".*hic* (as cartoon bubbles escape from his mouth)