Junior Olypmics -- CommentsCriticism

[goldbaker]

I'm with the Columbus Ohio Division, and just wanted to get an idea what people thought of the JO's. It was a pretty monumental undertaking for our little division (and the USFA and the Convention Center), and if we wind up doing another one, I just wanted to find out what people liked or didn't like about the tournament.

[Fencing Mom]

I was there three days - my son competed in two events. Good tournament. Seemed to be enough strips and directors. Things happened quickly, although not having repechage sure helped move things along. I particularly liked the barriers keeping all but the fencers and one coach off the strips. And it was sooo nice having a food court in the same building, so we could avoid the expensive greasy venue food. Go for another one!

[rustica]

Just a couple of comments....
The venue was fine, but there were few places to warm up. I too liked the barriers around the strips. The fencers could concentrate on fencing instead being moved all over. Was is Columbus or USFA who kept events on pretty much the same strips for the duration of the event? Good idea.
I would go to Columbus again, but NEVER again on President's Day Weekend. Cheerleaders, motorcycle enthusiasts, log home builders, full (very full) hotels near the venue, etc. We tried to get rooms last December and everything was booked. I would prefer another NAC. A DIV I or cadet and junior. Thank you Columbus clubs and division for your great work!

[edew]

[quote]Originally posted by rustica:
<strong>Just a couple of comments....
The venue was fine, but there were few places to warm up. I too liked the barriers around the strips. The fencers could concentrate on fencing instead being moved all over. Was is Columbus or USFA who kept events on pretty much the same strips for the duration of the event? Good idea.
I would go to Columbus again, but NEVER again on President's Day Weekend. Cheerleaders, motorcycle enthusiasts, log home builders, full (very full) hotels near the venue, etc. We tried to get rooms last December and everything was booked. I would prefer another NAC. A DIV I or cadet and junior. Thank you Columbus clubs and division for your great work! </strong><hr></blockquote>

If it's for JOs, you have no choice: the JOs are always on Presidents' Day weekend.

I found the barriers to be good in that it made the strip more manageable for me as a referee. However, it was a danged inconvenience crawling under or over them to get into the fencing area to referee. I found, also, that the moving the bouts from one strip to another in the other side was an extra pain in the butt. But that's the Bout Committee and strip managers issue and problem, not with the LOC.

It would be nice to have a larger venue, both to allow fencers more room to practice (there was absolutely no room at all once a competition or two were underway). The bleacher seats above were not at all used. Maybe the USFA should set up some system where only fencers and coaches can be in the competition floor and all others must be in the stands (like any other sport). Fencers and coaches will be given a pass, and someone will have to monitor the doors. All the extra parents and friends and such really made it difficult to walk around.

It would also be nice to have a finals strip (which I believe was present, but only until 10:00AM of the first day, and then the facilities folks took it apart -- I'm guessing USFA said they needed more space and extra strips).

I found the competition to be a bit weak. My first round pools and first round DEs had fairly weak fencers. Last year had much tougher fencers.

The referees' lounge was a joke, but I understand it's because they just ran out of room (the cheerleading and the military ball and other events kinda took up whatever other available space).

Several parents (and fencers) gave me glowing evaluations of my officiating. Thanks all! I think that the barriers helped a lot in that respect because it gave me more room to move around as well as not having to deal with people sitting between the strips and coaches yelling in my ears.

The hotel was fine; food was good; although the sevice was, er, slow.

[Mo]

I had two kids fencing in the Junior O's and thought the venue was really nice. The food court was great to have and made for some interesting people observations.It was big and open and the balcony was great for hanging around when the kids were not fencing.
One thing that really bothered me though was allowing directors who do not know what they are doing, to direct finals bouts. The other refs are standing around and KNOW certain directors are missing calls. Saber is hard to call and some guys just don't have the rules down or know the weapon well enough to see the subtleties that make the calls right and wrong.
The directors that do a good job calling saber should get to call. If they see someone is hosing over some kids by making constant bad calls, there should be a way to cut in and let someone else direct the bout. Maybe the coaches can approve the directors, they could have names on the list and pick 4 or five who can call instead of letting some poor child who has worked their butt off miss advancing because of bad calls.
As far as keeping parents away and people away from the strips the rails did a good job. I don't think they should be kept far away unless they are being jerks and disrupting the other fencers.
I stood next to one fencer's groupies and they told her every move to make in a most annoying manner, they probably disrupted her more than the kid she was fencing. That needs to be stopped.
I know most of this has nothing to do with Columbus. We were really happy with the location. Seeing all the cheerleading little girls with enough makeup to look like mini prostitudes made me very happy my kids chose fencing!

[edew]

[quote]Originally posted by Mo:
<strong>...
One thing that really bothered me though was allowing directors who do not know what they are doing, to direct finals bouts. The other refs are standing around and KNOW certain directors are missing calls. Saber is hard to call and some guys just don't have the rules down or know the weapon well enough to see the subtleties that make the calls right and wrong.
The directors that do a good job calling saber should get to call. If they see someone is hosing over some kids by making constant bad calls, there should be a way to cut in and let someone else direct the bout. Maybe the coaches can approve the directors, they could have names on the list and pick 4 or five who can call instead of letting some poor child who has worked their butt off miss advancing because of bad calls.
...</strong><hr></blockquote>

The FOC assigns the referees for each bout based on who the fencers are, who is capable of dealing with said pair of fencers, who the respective coaches might feel positive with, and who is feeling ready for the job. The FOC persons (Sam Cheris and Peter Burchard) do ask the prospective referees if they're up for the job. Sometimes, the referee might decline. They choose based on several factors, as mentioned above.

It's bad precedence to have another referee step in for the standing referee in the middle of the bout. The person who's behind might ask why didn't he or she step in earlier? Shouldn't they start the bout all over again. And, it puts a bad mark on that referee who might otherwise be a reasonable referee. Now, that referee will have a bad reputation and might be prejudged by future fencers as not being able to make the call.

Face it, bad calls will always happen. It's unlikely that in a high-pressure 15-point bout that there's no bad calls (especially in sabre; epee is less likely and foil a bit more likely, depending on the situation). It's expected that maybe two bad calls might occur in a high-pressure bout. Oh well.

[damianip]

I was there with my son.

Nice venue. I agree on the practice/warm-up space deficiency.

I think the barricades were great. I hate tournaments where the strips become highways and the space between them obstacle courses.

I found the balconey to be handy to shoot some bout videos and to get away from the crowd.

Eric, what is with the speed of service everywhere?

Everything was in SLOW MOTION. Maybe it's me being raised in NY, but it was making me nuts. However if a laid back West Coast native noticed it, it must have been bad.

Eric, BTW, was that you directing U17 MF on one of the strips by the main doors on Saturday?

Paolo

[Mo]

Face it, bad calls will always happen. It's unlikely that in a high-pressure 15-point bout that there's no bad calls (especially in sabre; epee is less likely and foil a bit more likely, depending on the situation). It's expected that maybe two bad calls might occur in a high-pressure bout. Oh well.
Edew,
This is very true and I do agree with you BUT you have to look at it from another point of view. While it would be very traumatic for the referee for another to step in, it may give fencers a real belief that refs want to do what is best.When they see something really bad going on, they can call a mini break. The refs could have a confidential conference and decide if what is going on is necessary for change.
A lot of screw ups have happened because "professionals" feel like they have to cover each other's butts.
For fencers it is just the results of one bout but it can be doctors or even ice skating judges.
The ice skating world got a lot more respect because when a foul was called, they actually did something about it.
I think there needs to be a lot more training for referees and have some suggestions how this can be done.
Presently, refs start calling matches when they are fencers, they learn by calling. I think someone needs to teach them. This can be done with practice bouts where one ref will call and everyone else can put their two cents in. One can say what the action is and why and then the others can discuss it. The actions need to be shown from the beginning, not learned from a guessing process.

Another is some good video taping of NAC Finals bouts and calls. The tapes can be reviewed and used as teaching tools. The actions can be explained in a step by step sequence so the directors really know what they are talking about. They need better pictures in their heads of specific actions especially in saber.
My kids had some really good refs in the meets but, the bad one(s) cost them dearly.
One or two bad calls is not that big of a tragedy nor are consistently wrong calls, because the fencer can adjust his or her actions. It is when the calls change from point to point that the fencer faces an impossible task.
If the powers that be want to find out the best refs, let them ask the senior fencers, let them ask the kids and coaches. The USFA can play Rate-A-Ref. The fencers know very well who the best referees are. They are the ones who make the good calls that make both fencers happy.
Being a director should never be about the ego of the director and possible hurt feelings. They are there for the fencers and need to keep that in mind.

[edew]

C'mon, comparing fencing referees to ice skating judges is unjustifiable. The ice skating judges were alleged to have colluded with each other with vote swapping. At best, you're calling that one referee for incompetence, and frankly, many coaches/parents/interested viewer will always see some incompetence within an overall competent work. When I was refereeing at the JOs, I had Emik Kaidanov and Wes Glon both watching, because they had a fencer on the strip. Their fencer was going against a really good, really strong fencer (who eventually took 6th or 7th). I made one call that both thought should have gone to their fencer. From their perspective at the end of the strip, it may have looked that way. I didn't see it that way otherwise. But, there was the usual ***** and moan. It will happen. To have a conference after one or two incidents and decide whether to change referees is both time consuming and a general lose-lose for everyone around. I highly disrecommend it.

[oiuyt]

Mo-
It has very little to do with the ref's feelings and self-worth and much more to do with the effectiveness of the ref. Once you start replacing refs mid-bout you get into a situation where ALL refs are less effective than the original fairly quickly.

While better training obviously would be a Good Thing in an abstract sense it's very hard to do in a practical sense. Last year at one of the Div I NACs (Ontario?) there was a brief clinic designed for the top-level sabre refs although fencers and coaches were also encouraged to watch. It was run by Yuri Gelman and involved a couple of the top sabre fencers doing actions and then the refs discussing. While the first couple of actions garnered much agreement, later situations ended up with groups of refs disagreeing on what they had just seen. We're talking top-level refs watching top-level (read: clean) competitors in a zero pressure practice situation.

Mistakes happen, disagreements happen. Some people see certain actions slightly differently. And sometimes someone's having a bad day or gets overly tired and starts missing calls that he/she wouldn't normally. Once that happens the ref isn't used further. Replacing refs mid-bout is a bigger problem. Under the USFA/FIE rules the only way a ref can be replaced is if they are incapable of continuing the bout.

-B

[edew]

[quote]Originally posted by damianip:
<strong>I was there with my son.

Nice venue. I agree on the practice/warm-up space deficiency.

I think the barricades were great. I hate tournaments where the strips become highways and the space between them obstacle courses.

I found the balconey to be handy to shoot some bout videos and to get away from the crowd.

Eric, what is with the speed of service everywhere?

Everything was in SLOW MOTION. Maybe it's me being raised in NY, but it was making me nuts. However if a laid back West Coast native noticed it, it must have been bad.

Eric, BTW, was that you directing U17 MF on one of the strips by the main doors on Saturday?

Paolo</strong><hr></blockquote>


Are you talking about speed of service at the hotel? The restaurant server was slow and overloaded. I arrived to join three others who had already ordered. I got my food before their orders were completed. Some got their food in dribs and drabs. The bar was all right.

I refereed both epee and foil. I did the U17 MF in the pools and DEs to 16. I did the U17 and U20 WF pools and DE to 16 as well. I did the U20 MF pools and DEs to 32 (then ran to catch a plane).

I did U17/20 WE and ME as well. I was all over the place. I run my pool bouts quickly, and usually is the first to finish. So, they ask me to double-strip the remaining bouts of the slower pools. I think I should slow down some!

I don't recall where I was refereeing. We were all bounced around from one side to the other.

[Kodiak Kid]

Well, I was there for the entire event and I was quite impressed in many ways. I've had some experience in running larg-ish events with thousands of attendees over several days and from my perspective, Columbus was a great choice and the local Division should be applauded for their efforts. There's always somebody who can find something to complain about at a gig like this (God bless 'em) but it looked like everthing was running pretty smoothly to me.
I made hotel reservations the day after our Division's J.O. Qualifier and the Hyatt was already booked solid... So I didn't have the service problems some of you noted.
I watched all the finals from the balcony level and it was a great angle. I thought the ref's were pretty tolerant of non fencers being on the strip. Anyway, kudos to the Columbus fencers and the rest of the folks who live there. I was made to feel very welcome, spent loads of cash on some very good food, beer and cigars, met some real interesting people and got to visit a place I've never been before.
As far as the directing goes, there were some really good, consistant directing. Most of it in fact. There were a couple that were driving me ( and others) crazy. In the words of one very highly rated fencers dad .."It's not that he's an idiot, but he's an inconsistant idiot!" Ah well, maybe when I get my international director's card I'll feel differently.

Oh yeah, I was told by the guys taking down the raised platform that had been intended for the finals that it had been determined by(..........) that it was too "lumpy/uneven/not solid enough" so they had to take it down.

[neevel]

[quote]Originally posted by Kodiak Kid:
<strong>Oh yeah, I was told by the guys taking down the raised platform that had been intended for the finals that it had been determined by(..........) that it was too "lumpy/uneven/not solid enough" so they had to take it down.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sounds like what happened with the raised strip at Sacramento last summer. The height adjustment mechanisms on the risers used for the strip weren't build to take the pounding of people fencing on them and would start to slip so that the individual risers wouldn't be the same height. The facilities people couldn't keep up with the need to constantly re-set the height.

-Dave

[goldbaker]

Thanks for the comments so far. Just a couple of quick notes, and a few more questions.

The platforms for the raised strips just were not stable enough. Hopefully, we'll figure something out for next time.

I appreciate the comments on the warm up space -- we honestly never even considered that. If do we get another event, we'll at least ask whether the convention center can provide a room or some dedicated space for warming up, coaching, etc.

The referees' lounge was pretty shabby, I admit. Again, we had to work with the limits of the space. I know the directors work long hours. All I can say is that if we can get an extra room in the future, we can try to do something better.

With regard to the comments on the directing itself, the local division doesn't have any control over that.

My questions are:

1. Where was the service bad? The hotel, the convention center? All of Columbus? I don't know if it will make a difference, but the Convention Bureau people should at least hear the comments since it's their job to bring folks to town and make sure they have a good time.

2. Is there anything else the division can provide that you would like sold at the events? (We just sold programs, T-shirts and mugs)

3. Which hotels and restaurants did people like best?

Thanks again.

[edew]

[quote]Originally posted by goldbaker:
<strong>...

My questions are:

1. Where was the service bad? The hotel, the convention center? All of Columbus? I don't know if it will make a difference, but the Convention Bureau people should at least hear the comments since it's their job to bring folks to town and make sure they have a good time.

2. Is there anything else the division can provide that you would like sold at the events? (We just sold programs, T-shirts and mugs)

3. Which hotels and restaurants did people like best?

Thanks again.</strong><hr></blockquote>

1. I had not particular complaints about service. I had a mildly poor experience at the Market Cafe restaurant (the Hyatt hotel restaurant), but it wasn't as bad as my tablemates, who arrived much earlier and had their food served a bit later than mine.

2. I don't have any suggestions. However, I encourage all present and future LOCs to think creatively on what they can sell or provide in terms of sponsorship. USFA national takes in a big chunk of money, so the t-shirt sales and such will be the main, if not sole, form of income for the local organizers. That said, creative ideas on what to sell may generate more revenue than not.

Personally, I think the Columbus site could have been made to charge admission, where people had to sit upstairs in the bleachers.

3. I went to Mitchell's Steakhouse the first evening I was there. Recommend it to all meat-eating folks. It's not cheap, but certainly good. A friend went to a *surprise!* sushi place and said it was pretty good. I would question a sushi place in Columbus.

As a referee there, I had little opportunity to see anything else outside of the venue, so I can't comment more on that.

[ 02-20-2002: Message edited by: edew ]</p>

[Kodiak Kid]

I spent some quality time at the Flatiron and the Elevator. Great beers and cigars. Excellent food and very accomodating staff. Had a meatloaf patty melt at Max & Erma's that was even better than Mom makes! The staff at the Hyatt were either really good or really "I don't give a rip", so it depended on who you got, but it wasn't horrible. We went out to Easton and had a good time there one evening. Lot's to do around Columbus I thought. But, I overheard a young man from New York City tell his Mom that it looked like a "ghost town" because there was nobody on the streets at night. All a matter of perspective. When you live on an island with a total population of 14,000, everything about the entire weekend looked big! I'd recommend it to anyone.

[Fencing Mom]

I could not let this pass. Edew said:

The bleacher seats above were not at all used. Maybe the USFA should set up some system where only fencers and coaches can be in the competition floor and all others must be in the stands (like any other sport). Fencers and coaches will be given a pass, and someone will have to monitor the doors. All the extra parents and friends and such really made it difficult to walk around.
Fencing is not like any other sport. Football, soccer, and basketball players get on their school busses to go to games. Cheerleaders, coaches, friends, and parents cheer them on, then return home for the night. When they win, they all celebrate. When they loose, they pass around the blame.
Fencers and their parents get on airplanes, book hotel rooms, buy, buy, buy. As parents we run from the strip to the armourers with the weapon that failed , to vendors to replace the lame that didn't pass before the close of registration, ukp and down the venue, looking for the coach because the bout is getting away. When they lose, we take the long plane trips home with them.
Relegate me to the balcony and I'll stop all of the spending. I'll stop loading my van with equipment and kids, heading for the next national within driving distance, divisional. sectional, or circuit tournament. I'll stop the hours of numbing bout committee work, selling gatoraid and water for the club, laying down tape.
Put me in the balcony so I can't see my kid's perfect flick and in a few years you won't have to worry about space. Veterans don't bring their parents with them.

[Peach]

Actually, *my* mom is always nagging me to take her to my events, and I'm 50. But I agree. Not to mention how much time I spend at events being a spectator when I've been knocked out.

My daughter went on her own from college, though I paid for it and made the reservations. It was her last JOs, and I told her to just go and enjoy herself, and to be sure to buy a T-shirt.

I made reservations at the Hyatt first, based on my daughter's fencing schedule (after 6 or 7 years of doing this I've learned to make the hotel reservations early) and then ended up finding that the airfare was so much cheaper it made sense to send her a day earlier. But I forgot to change my reservations, and the Hyatt got booked up. So Jessica ended up staying at the Adam's Mark the first night and then moving to the Hyatt. Both hotels were pretty friendly about it all and she said the Adam's Mark was nice but the people were "kinda spacey."

She said the directing was good, but then she's an epeeist and I'm a sabreuse, so her standards for good refereeing have different criteria than mine.

[damianip]

[quote]Originally posted by goldbaker:
<strong>My questions are:

1. Where was the service bad? The hotel, the convention center? All of Columbus? I don't know if it will make a difference, but the Convention Bureau people should at least hear the comments since it's their job to bring folks to town and make sure they have a good time.

2. Is there anything else the division can provide that you would like sold at the events? (We just sold programs, T-shirts and mugs)

3. Which hotels and restaurants did people like best?

Thanks again.</strong><hr></blockquote>

1. The hotel desk was kind of slow at check-in. They "lost" half of my ex's reservation so we had to all stay in one room the first night.

Memories...

The Market Cafe was slow in just getting the service to the table. On Sunday, the little convenience store next to it was painfully slow.

The restaurant we went to in the Short North (Lemon Grass?)was a bit slow, but the food was very good and the service was very cordial so it didn't seem as bad.

It seems as if they just weren't ready for us, the cheerleaders, the children's book authors and the Military formal all in one weekend.

Then again, it could just be my hyperactive East Coast approach to things.

2. My mother wanted me to bring her back a cap with JO something or other on it. Sorry Ma, you're gettin' a T-shirt.

3. The hotel (Hyatt) was OK except for the reservation SNAFU and the world's slowest (there's that word again) bank of elevators.

We kind of ate on the run for the most part (food court, mall), but the Market Cafe in the hotel was mediocre. We liked the Lemon Grass restaurant.

Paolo

[edew]

[quote]Originally posted by Fencing Mom:
<strong>I could not let this pass. Edew said:

The bleacher seats above were not at all used. Maybe the USFA should set up some system where only fencers and coaches can be in the competition floor and all others must be in the stands (like any other sport). Fencers and coaches will be given a pass, and someone will have to monitor the doors. All the extra parents and friends and such really made it difficult to walk around.
Fencing is not like any other sport. Football, soccer, and basketball players get on their school busses to go to games. Cheerleaders, coaches, friends, and parents cheer them on, then return home for the night. When they win, they all celebrate. When they loose, they pass around the blame.
Fencers and their parents get on airplanes, book hotel rooms, buy, buy, buy. As parents we run from the strip to the armourers with the weapon that failed , to vendors to replace the lame that didn't pass before the close of registration, ukp and down the venue, looking for the coach because the bout is getting away. When they lose, we take the long plane trips home with them.
Relegate me to the balcony and I'll stop all of the spending. I'll stop loading my van with equipment and kids, heading for the next national within driving distance, divisional. sectional, or circuit tournament. I'll stop the hours of numbing bout committee work, selling gatoraid and water for the club, laying down tape.
Put me in the balcony so I can't see my kid's perfect flick and in a few years you won't have to worry about space. Veterans don't bring their parents with them.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Ok, I retract my suggestions. No need to kill off the real life-blood of fencing: the parents.