David vs. Goliath

[Slim]

My son is 10...a little guy even for 10. He does foil. I'm not a fencer. He uses a 2, but most of the kids he is fencing use a 4 or 5. He prefers the control of the 2..any bigger is just too heavy for him. He does fine against the kids his size or a little bigger. He's having a really hard time bigger guys with much longer reach than he has (no surprise). Here is his problem...he is very agressive against these guys and 90% of the time ends up impailing himself as he chases these guys down the strip. They have a hard time scoring on him until he gets frustrated that nothing is happening and goes into this march thing down the strip. All they do is stick out their blade as they are retreating and boom...one light...theirs. His dufus coach gave him the answer "They're bigger so you're probably going to lose anyways. Dont worry about it". Kinda lame answer I think. So does my son. So, what advice might any of you smaller foilist have for closing the gap, getting around the blade and fencing from the inside? Thanks.

Slim

[Cipher]

Reach is a definite advantage in foil. The best thing you could do is work on his patience and defensive skills. If he can parry and advance to a shorter distance, then he should have the advantage with the riposte. Even if his misses the riposte, the opponent will have to retreat to be able to make a decent attack (assuming that they having the typical infighting skills of 10 year olds; none). By staying at medium and long range is giving his larger opponents a big advantage. The other thing that could help is to work on the speed of his footwork. It's not a good idea to start weight training that early, but you could definitely work on speed and agility exercises. All this depends, of course, on how motivated he is.

So, yeah, patience, defense, and footwork... come to think of it, that's the same stuff I need to work on... hmm.

Disclaimer: I'm not that great at fencing, but one of the places I fence is at a YCMA with a big group of 9-12 year-olds, so I have seen how younger kids fence and what their typical problems are.

[slots]

of course he's at a disadvantage with the bigger, older fencers.. Fencing them with a shorter foil will do that. I think that sticking with fencing people his own age, with the same foil length would be the best thing... until he is able to use the standard length foil. just my opinion...

[bjacobs]

I know you don't want to hear defeatist talk, but face it: he's ten years old, fencing bigger (older?) kids using longer weapons. He is going to lose, and will probably keep losing for a while.

However, he won't be a shrimp forever, and even if he's never tall for his age (this is a guy who's not quite 5'6" talking) he'll eventually reach a certain baseline of size and physical ability that makes competition with bigger people possible.

At his age and size, your concern should not at all be beating all the other 10 and 11 year olds flailing around; concentrate on helping him develop as good technique as possible, both in blade work and footwork (especially footwork). Go over simple strategies he might use when fencing, but do not be concerned when he loses frequently.

In the long term, when he develops a bit more physically, he may turn out to be a great fencer (who knows?); it's already a good sign that these bigger kids already have a difficult time getting their hits. They're certainly not getting better through the way they're beating your son, and won't be able to get away with that stuff forever.

Oh, and your coach isn't a dufus, jerk.

[Slim]

Slots,

Age has nothing to do with it. There is a HUGE size variance in the 9-12 year old groups, which is where he fences. I watched him fence a 12 year old yesterday that was 5'7 and I swear had a 5'oclock shadow.

[slots]

I just meant that he should fence people that have the same length foil as himself...

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by bjacobs

Oh, and your coach isn't a dufus, jerk.

If all the advice he can give a fencer who is short is that they're going to lose anyway, he is indeed a dufus...but he does have a point. Unfortunately, short fencers need to have good distance, speed, and strength...all of which are also problems for younger fencers.

[Slim]

Mr Jacobs, thanks (sort of) for the backhanded response. Did I hit a nerve? See some of my other post he regarding his coach. He is a dufus and one does not have to be a fencer to realize this.

Answering a question from an intelligent student that realizes what is happening and is trying to improve himself, with "Dont worry, just keep losing" is, in my opinion, wrong.

[foildad]

Chemistry between a coach and a 10 y.o. and his parents is critical. If you think the coach is a dufus you should look for another coach.

[Alain]

Hi,

I'm by no means an expert with foil, but for a ten year-old fencing against adults, I'd say two things: first off, well done; second, set goals. Well done for fencing against the big people, although it can be daunting fencing people twice your size, it should do him a lot of good so well done for having a go. Then, against these people, your son should be aware that it's not possible to beat everyone - try to get him in a positive attitide, set a goal of getting 7 or 10 of 15 hits or something to work on...

As far as tactics are concerned then yes, the coach sounds a little shallow. However, nobody is invincible, and you should at least try your best. It would seem that bellyflopping onto the opponents point isn't the best answer, so tell your son and (as Cipher said) he should work on being patient and developing other parts of his game. Once you get to a certain level, you can no longer beat people by fencing harder or stronger; you have to fence smarter. Try to make your son aware of this, and hopefully he'll learn how to do so over time - good luck

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by Slim

Mr Jacobs, thanks (sort of) for the backhanded response. Did I hit a nerve? See some of my other post he regarding his coach. He is a dufus and one does not have to be a fencer to realize this.

Answering a question from an intelligent student that realizes what is happening and is trying to improve himself, with "Dont worry, just keep losing" is, in my opinion, wrong.

the problem becomes that if you are half the size of someone you are trying to fence, unless you are very very good and they are very very bad, you really probably are going to lose.

simply because you have to be much closer to them than they have to be to you.

fencing, for a large chunk of time when you're starting out shouldn't be about winning---- especially when it's not a reasonable goal to win a lot.

if the coach is not properly able to deal with small children, then sure-- it may be time to try another coach.

but if the only problem with the coach is that he's not trying to make your son very competitive before he can even hold the same size foil that the older kids are....... then the problem is probably not with the coach.

yes, your son shoudl be competitve with other 10 year olds his height carrying 2 blades. no, he should not be competitve with 12 year olds, 14 year olds, or 20 year olds carrying longer blades. that's just the way works, and it's not much fun being a 10 year old at that point........ but you can't really change that.....

[Chaospenguin101]

Originally Posted by Slim

My son is 10...a little guy even for 10. He does foil. I'm not a fencer. He uses a 2, but most of the kids he is fencing use a 4 or 5. He prefers the control of the 2..any bigger is just too heavy for him. He does fine against the kids his size or a little bigger. He's having a really hard time bigger guys with much longer reach than he has (no surprise). Here is his problem...he is very agressive against these guys and 90% of the time ends up impailing himself as he chases these guys down the strip. They have a hard time scoring on him until he gets frustrated that nothing is happening and goes into this march thing down the strip. All they do is stick out their blade as they are retreating and boom...one light...theirs. His dufus coach gave him the answer "They're bigger so you're probably going to lose anyways. Dont worry about it". Kinda lame answer I think. So does my son. So, what advice might any of you smaller foilist have for closing the gap, getting around the blade and fencing from the inside? Thanks.

Slim

BEing tall myself, I can tell you what people always did to me to score point.
They'd carefully manage to get on the inside where I couldn't get them OR they'd wait for my attack and than duck...but that didn't work as much

[Chaospenguin101]

Originally Posted by Slim

My son is 10...a little guy even for 10. He does foil. I'm not a fencer. He uses a 2, but most of the kids he is fencing use a 4 or 5. He prefers the control of the 2..any bigger is just too heavy for him. He does fine against the kids his size or a little bigger. He's having a really hard time bigger guys with much longer reach than he has (no surprise). Here is his problem...he is very agressive against these guys and 90% of the time ends up impailing himself as he chases these guys down the strip. They have a hard time scoring on him until he gets frustrated that nothing is happening and goes into this march thing down the strip. All they do is stick out their blade as they are retreating and boom...one light...theirs. His dufus coach gave him the answer "They're bigger so you're probably going to lose anyways. Dont worry about it". Kinda lame answer I think. So does my son. So, what advice might any of you smaller foilist have for closing the gap, getting around the blade and fencing from the inside? Thanks.

Slim

BEing tall myself, I can tell you what people always did to me to score point.
They'd carefully manage to get on the inside where I couldn't get them OR they'd wait for my attack and than duck...but that didn't work as much.
And wow, that couch of his must suck if he said that

[bjacobs]

Hey, I love the fact that you're so supportive of your son fencing, and want him to succeed. It's great that you're doing everything you can to find out how he can win. But this isn't a general case of "what can a small person do to beat a big one?" That's an interesting question, which has been discussed many times, and has lots of potential answers. I know a lot of them, being small myself, but not a completely terrible fencer.

But this is a small ten year old using shorter than normal blades. He's going to lose. There's a certain physical baseline needed to compete with bigger/older fencers. To make use of all the strategies people have worked out to beat bigger people, you need to have a certain amount of speed, explosiveness, ability to change direction and speed, etc. A kid who doesn't yet feel comfortable even holding a weapon the same size his peers use has not yet reached that baseline.

So I gave you the best advice I could think of: concentrate more on technical ability rather than winning, so that when he gets a bit bigger he will start winning. His goals right now should be more about mastering basics while in bouts, such as looking for parry ripostes, understanding right of way, making feint disengages, etc. They shouldn't be a single minded focus to close distance and win through infighting or other height specific tactics.

I'm not giving some bleh winning doesn't matter speech; winning does matter, but only at a certain level. Concentrate on goals beyond competitions between flailing 10 year olds.

[oiuyt]

Ben's absolutely right, and his advice is spot-on. Even the doufus coach might have the right advice, merely either an inability to convey it well, or you're hearing what he's saying and not getting the important part. Winning when one is 10 is not important. That's not the reason any 10-year-old should be fencing. Enjoying oneself, learning what can become a lifelong passion, developing as an athlete and a person, these are all goals that a 10-year-old can and should make progress towards through fencing.

Is it nice to win? Absolutely. Is it the only thing to strive for through fencing? Absolutely not. This is true when you're 10, 20, or 50. Especially at developmental ages (such as 10), development is significantly more important than results.

-B :)

[Slim]

I think some of you are missing the point of my initial question. Cipher answered the question as I had hoped. Thank you Cipher. There were also a few other good ones, thanks all.

You know, it would be a lot easier if he was satisifed with the "You're small, you'll lose, go have fun" answer. Unfortunately, he doesnt buy it, and frankly if he wants to take the initiative to work at getting better, who is anyone to stand in his way? Not providing him with legit answers to his questions on how to get around someone's technique will probably turn him off the sport faster than anything. That motivated at 10? Hard to believe perhaps. But, that's what I've got to deal with.

Believe me, neither I nor my son expect him to be winning every bout. I think the losing is fine and he can learn more by losing...provided he is offered the chance to learns from it!

Some kids are happy just playing zorro or pirate with a pointy thing. Some are not, and want more. I suspect it's the folks that believe kids should be happy just flailing away until some magic age are the same ones who think kids dont know it's a load of crap when they dont keep score at their soccer games.

If what I am detecting is actually a belief that kids at 10-12 or so should not be competing, that's a whole different topic....

Slim

[bjacobs]

Without meaning to be any ruder than I might already have been, I think we do get the point, but you just don't like the answer. There are ways for a small guy to beat a bigger guy. It just isn't likely that your particular small guy has the bare minimum yet to pull any of these things off consistently. If he does, it'll likely be through odd and grotesque actions that won't work on anyone decent, and won't permit him to get any better at fencing.

Look at the advice Cipher told you: basically, that your son needs more speed to offset people's reach advantage. It's true that this is a way to do it; so what's your plan now, Hey,son, we're going to do wind sprints every morning, plus plyometrics, and hours of footwork so you can catch the big guys and hit them? I don't believe a ten year old admittedly small for his size and unable to use a weapon as long as his peers can just up and become an explosive speed demon. He'll grow into whatever athleticism will be his in time, and speed and strength (and who knows, maybe reach) will come.

If he's motivated, try to sell him on the idea of longer term goals. The key to him becoming a fencer who wins a lot of the time is to spend his current time (especially a lot of his bouting time) on working on good technique. This will let him do much better when he's big and strong enough to use a real sized blade, and use more explosive footwork. However, in the short run, this'll mean losing a lot of bouts. If neither of you are willing to go through a developmental period before getting wins, well, you're not going to like fencing.

Re-read my posts, and you'll see I'm advocating the exact opposite of flailing away or playing zorro. I'm advocating a committed effort to technical excellence. What you're asking for is wish-magic, not advice.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by bjacobs

Without meaning to be any ruder than I might already have been, I think we do get the point, but you just don't like the answer.

Of course he doesn't like the answer! How could he possibly be consoled when he is answered that there's nothing he can do about it? It is true that it's DIFFICULT for a 10 year old to win any bout...but the coach should start him on that difficult road, not do the equivalent of ignoring him.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I can reccomend that the child does as much practice as possible, working on parries, lunges, disengages, footwork, point control, all that. Also, to help even things out, he might want to start doing some bodyweight excercises, like pushups, situps, hindu squats and chin ups. He may not be able to do many, but if he can improve his strength, he will fare much better, and be able to dominate his age group. Also... make sure the lad gets enough sleep, and drinks lots of water, and cut down on the TV. Ummm... make him climb tree's and play tag, its good for him. Basically.... a y-10 fencer can win by being strong and athletic, because at that age, the brain is usually not developed enough to make use of the full range of tactical options, so he needs to rely on might. Also, see about putting a cant in the tang of his blade, especially if you move him to a 5. It can make it seem soooo much lighter. Get an aluminum bell guard, a solid metal grip, and a light cheap blade. Drill on a dummy at home, trying to get the blade control down. Alot of blade control , at that age, its governed by strength, so therefore the weaker children cannot control the larger blades adequately, but a stronger child can. Again, this is another instance where strength training, IE pushups and chinups, is a great benefit to the athlete. Of course, the child has to want to win, and improve, in order to find the motivation to do these things, so really its just within the child. Success, though it may be cultivated from without, always comes from within. Most of all, he ought to enjoy it, and if he gets his joy from winning, and improving, and it really makes him tick, then you have yourself a diamond in the rough.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by Slim

If what I am detecting is actually a belief that kids at 10-12 or so should not be competing, that's a whole different topic....

........ i won't speak for anyone else...

but i kind of feel like the general opinion is not that kids at 10-12 should not be competing---

it's that kids at age 10-12 shoudl only really be competing against other kids that are 10-12 if they expect to win-- and even then, if they're on the small side of 10 and the person they're fencing is on the big side of 12, they shouldn't expect to have a great chance. and that fencing the bigger kids isn't necessarily a bad idea..... but it does mean that they will have a MUCH more difficult time being competitive.