David vs. Goliath

[Slim]

Mr Jacobs,

I posed a pretty simple question. I'm not trying to sell him or motivate him or set up some training program for a 10 year old, or looking for the magic bullet. I explained the exact scenario he has problem with. I was looking for a techincal answer to a techincal question, not an answer the question you decided to address of : "How does a 10 year old start winning?" Maybe you should re-read my initial post.

Somehow it devolved into this winning-losing, he's too young/small/slow, give it time, blah, blah, blah. So, yeah.....you DID miss the point (no pun intended).

Although your suggestions, as obvious as they may be, are appreicated, your arrogant tone is not. I understand that as a non-foilist, you may have some difficulties with this foil related question. But thank you for your input nevertheless.

Slim

[Slim]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

I can reccomend that the child does as much practice as possible, working on parries, lunges, disengages, footwork, point control, all that. Also, to help even things out, he might want to start doing some bodyweight excercises, like pushups, situps, hindu squats and chin ups. He may not be able to do many, but if he can improve his strength, he will fare much better, and be able to dominate his age group. Also... make sure the lad gets enough sleep, and drinks lots of water, and cut down on the TV. Ummm... make him climb tree's and play tag, its good for him. Basically.... a y-10 fencer can win by being strong and athletic, because at that age, the brain is usually not developed enough to make use of the full range of tactical options, so he needs to rely on might. Also, see about putting a cant in the tang of his blade, especially if you move him to a 5. It can make it seem soooo much lighter. Get an aluminum bell guard, a solid metal grip, and a light cheap blade. Drill on a dummy at home, trying to get the blade control down. Alot of blade control , at that age, its governed by strength, so therefore the weaker children cannot control the larger blades adequately, but a stronger child can. Again, this is another instance where strength training, IE pushups and chinups, is a great benefit to the athlete. Of course, the child has to want to win, and improve, in order to find the motivation to do these things, so really its just within the child. Success, though it may be cultivated from without, always comes from within. Most of all, he ought to enjoy it, and if he gets his joy from winning, and improving, and it really makes him tick, then you have yourself a diamond in the rough.

Thanks for the thoughful answer. What is a "cant in the tang"?

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by Slim

Thanks for the thoughful answer. What is a "cant in the tang"?

are you looking for tactics for him to be able to succeed against... 11 year olds who are 5 inches taller, or are you looking for tactics for him to be able to succeed against college kids?????????


one is a valid request, one is not.

i'm hoping you're looking for the former, and we're misinterpreting and thinking you mean the later.

i hope.

[Slim]

Heh....the specific incident was a Y-12 tourney that he placed 4th in because he lost to 2 kids that were a bigger, had a longer reach and did to him what I described in the initial post. I hope this clears things up. He is 10 and does Y12s, not Cadets or Juniors. I wont even put him in an Open or Novice.

[mlr2fence]

Its very difficult to watch your child want to do so well and then to struggle against the bigger kids. Sometimes the best answer is to take the long viewed approach--without making excuses. In the kids it so often is simply a matter of 'he who wins the puberty race wins the event'. A boy who has fast tracked along the puberty line will have more muscle strength and will be able to, without needing much technique, just push the blade out of the way. I would focus on your son perfecting his technique and continuing to do so during the bout and it will start to pay off. This is a problem with kids sports--that they develop physically at different rates, or in the case of fencing have the dreaded December birthday where even when in their last year of an age group still have kids almost a year older in it! For these kids they have to learn alot of patience and wait until things physically start leveling out. There are plenty of examples where a child does well in younger age groups because they are more physically mature so that they don't learn good technique and win using their size, but really are hurt by this because they don't learn the technique or how to incorporate the thinking aspects of fencing. I know that this may not be the answer you're looking for but it might be the most realistic one. I would focus on the fact that your son is competitive in his age group and look at fencing 'up' as an opportunity for practicing his technique even tho he is at a disadvantage with the shorter blade.

[foildad]

Originally Posted by Slim

Heh....the specific incident was a Y-12 tourney that he placed 4th in because he lost to 2 kids that were a bigger, had a longer reach and did to him what I described in the initial post. I hope this clears things up. He is 10 and does Y12s, not Cadets or Juniors. I wont even put him in an Open or Novice.

Are Y10 events common in your area? If so, encourage your son to enter those; not only will the kids be smaller, but Y10 events require a #2 blade, which would eliminate the disadvantage he has when facing 12 year olds with #5 blades.

If there are no Y10 events in your area just keep doing what you're doing: encourage him, look out for his interests, and don't hesitate to ask questions on this forum.

Also, try not to get frustrated when the posts take on a direction of their own. It happens. Realize that most people mean well.

And seriously, if you don't respect the coach, look for another. It doesn't matter who's right and who's wrong. If parent, coach, and fencer don't have mutual respect you can expect more problems in the future.

Good luck to both you and your son.

[Cipher]

Basically the only way to overcome your son's small stature is through physical development. If you are looking to proactively attack the problems of your son's limitations, I suggest you check out the site http://www.strongkid.com . It gives some good advice about sensible, safe, and effective training programs that are appropriate for children even younger than your son. I can understand your desire to not rely on wheneven your son's body decides to develop, just make sure that you don't push too hard. I also suggest that if you and he are serious about his athletic development, you should consult a doctor and a physical trainer that has experience with children. There is no sense in doing it if you are not going to do it correctly and safely. I hope that helps you.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Slim

Thanks for the thoughful answer. What is a "cant in the tang"?

A cant in the tang is when the tang of the blade (the part that the handle goes on), is bent slightly. Nearly all blades, if you get them already put together, come with a cant. If you buy blades separately from handles, bellguards, etc., then they won't come with a cant. Most fencers put a cant in their blades, and some prefer a larger/smaller/differently-angled cant that fits their style.

Usually, a cant is, for a righty, angled down and to the left. If you don't have much experience with it, ask his coach, who, though he might be a dufus, probably has a reasonable amount of knowledge about canting blades.

[telkanuru]

I'm not getting a good read on what you actually think of this coach. Is he competent, but preoccupied with older students? Why is he dismissive? Are you taking these competitions too seriously? My opinion (and possibly what the coach is implying, and brad and ben were saying) is that what your son currently needs is bouting experience, win or lose. Experience in a competition environment is absolutely priceless. You can always tell who is unused to competition, as they are not the people who are relaxed, at ease, and usually winning...

If your son is getting lessons and practicing regularly, then that's enough. Progress is normally gradual, and you might be expecting to much. If he isn't doing the above, then do the above.

[starbury]

I can empathize with your situation, Slim. When I was fencing youth, cadet, and junior events I was almost always a lot shorter than most of the other competitors. It may be, as some posters have suggested, that your son will close the size disparity as he matures. But if not, there's no reason to get discouraged. I made many Junior Olympics and NAC finals despite being almost half a foot shorter than most of the other fencers in many cases. Alessandro Puccini, the 1996 Olympic gold medalist in foil, is only 1-2 inches taller than I am now.

For shorter fencers it's especially important to focus on two aspects of footwork: acceleration and changing directions. Acceleration allows a fencer to close distance very quickly, which is vital in getting inside a taller fencer's defense. Direction changes allow shorter fencers to set up attacks into long preparations.

In terms of general tactics, it's important to keep the distance very large. If your son does decide to make an attack with a longer preparation, i would advise him to use a lot of attacks on the blade, such as beats and presses. This would allow him to easily take right of way or close out the taller fencer if he tries to sneak in a counter attack. During the attack, he should keep his steps small to give himself enough time and distance to react to the other fencer. If he is able to gain control of the other fencer's blade (through either beats or prise de fer), accelerate and hit. If the other fencer deceives the search, then he will have a pretty good idea where his blade is going to be and can either take it with a second search (e.g. circle six to four) or retreat and parry if the distance is too tight. Jacqueline Leahy is an example of a fencer who can do this very well.

Another possible idea is to set up an attack in preparation, which can be done with second-intention because longer fencers also tend to attack with longer preparations (against frantically retreating people!) This is more complicated and probably too advanced for young fencers, but it's something to keep in mind. If you can find old footage of Puccini fencing some of the larger germans (like Wolfgang Wienand), it could be helpful. But i wouldn't worry about this too much at your son's stage.

Most importantly, i hope that your son continues to enjoy fencing and that he doesn't get too discouraged by the early losses. Best of luck!

[DHCJr]

I would like to add something. DON'T give up on the shorter blades. They can work. I know a fencer who has been an A in ALL 3 weapons. He actually started in Foil and was his finest. He had all lengths of blades and several that would make what people call a 0, LONG. He used these very short blades against the TALLEST fencers, those like 6'6" and win.

He used two things a strong beat and fast reflexes. He would give a strong beat and get past their point. At that point it was easy, they couldn't hit him.

This may sound like a fallacy, but think on this. With your right hand touch your right shoulder. Now, again with you right hand touch your right elbow which is closer. Don't let him give up. Have them work on getting past the tip.

[Slim]

Starbury,

Great information here. What I can see is that his distance is usually pretty good. He doesnt get nailed very often but was coming up about 2-3 inches short when he did a reposte even with this pretty cool deep lunge he can do right off the parry. Someone suggested to him to take an additional step before the lunge, and that got him getting touches. He gets tired of waiting for them to attack so now I guess challenge is to learn to redirect and get around their blade as he goes in so he doesn't impail himself. I'll let him read this reply tomorrow. I'm sure he'll know more about what you are saying I do.

He is having a great time and is far from discouraged. Thanks!

[Slim]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

A cant in the tang is when the tang of the blade (the part that the handle goes on), is bent slightly.

Got it...never heard it called a cant though. Plain old "bend in the tang" is what they call it at his club. I am quite the "canter" now, as I all the re-wiring, "bending" and tip replacement myself. Thanks.

For the record, there are 2 coaches at his club. Only one is a dufus. We stay away from him as much as possible.

[Zilverzmurfen]

It's great to hear that you're so supportive of your sons fencing (however I hope you're not being a 'pushy' parent...)!

Since you have already gotten so many answers I would just like to add this: I don't think there's anything wrong with having children at your sons age competing - as long as all referees, parents, etc. emphasizes on fun and sportsmanship!

As a sidenote I would also like to add that at one of the kids foil competitions here in Sweden it is a custom to, when bouts start, let the youngest competitior choose the size of the foil.

Sure, this means arrangers have to keep a few extra foils in hand for loaning but all in all it doesn't have to be that many extra weapons. Just a thought I wanted to share.

Happy fencing!
And dad, if you are not yet a fencer yourself then pick up the sport - it's FUN!!!

[remise]

Slim -

You have been given a lot of good advice here. As the parent of a fencer who started out as tall as the foil, I can relate. My son was 'picked off' for years, and I DO MEAN for years - by his own age category, and by older children. I stayed out of his way, because he fenced foil and I fenced epee.

As far as I was concerned, my son's development was between him and his coach, and he deeply respected his coach. Time went by. Then, it seemed that overnight, all of the training...all of the practice, all of the time put in...suddenly "clicked". My son began winning. He is still small. He fences with a small blade, just like DHCJr, mentioned. However, my son has practiced his footwork ad nauseaum, and can be blindingly fast. He moves past his opponents point has infights quite well. He has a 'binding' move that I myself envy. I hope this helps.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Slim

He gets tired of waiting for them to attack so now I guess challenge is to learn to redirect and get around their blade as he goes in so he doesn't impail himself.

Originally Posted by Slim

Here is his problem...he is very agressive against these guys and 90% of the time ends up impailing himself as he chases these guys down the strip. They have a hard time scoring on him until he gets frustrated that nothing is happening and goes into this march thing down the strip. All they do is stick out their blade as they are retreating and boom...one light...theirs.

Mmmmm, or perhaps the problem is that he's not willing to continue a winning game and instead chooses to play to the strengths of his opponents. They can't score on him so they wait until he gets frustrated and makes a poor decision (charging someone who can merely extend and safely score). First solution is to stop trying to catch these opponents. He does fine when they come to him, he gets hit when he goes to them. Obvious solution is to be at least as patient as the 12-year-olds (not a particularly hard task in most cases) and force them to keep coming after him and playing a game which, at least from what you've written, is a game in which he CAN compete. Patience is a virtue.

And I still say that BJacob's advice is the best that's been presented on this thread so far. Beating 12-year-olds frequently has very little to do with the skill of the fencer. If your goal is to become a good fencer, beating these fencers is not hugely important. If you ARE looking for some short-term success, or at least a close-to-level playing field, while developing towards the eventual fencer you/your son want your son to be, that's why we have the RYC system. Go play with other 10-year-olds rather than the 15-year-olds with 5 o'clock shadow. Play with other age groups to gain experience and to see fencers with more time/experience/fencing knowledge than the 10 year-olds provide. But the goal of fencing them isn't to win, it's to help become a better fencer.

-B :)

[Slim]

Indeed, I have received some good advice here. One of the best nuggets so far seems to be to make sure he is playing his game, and not get sucked into playing theirs. I'm not sure why the particular coach he asked couldn't have said that, but that's another story.

He does RYCs, but we can't afford to travel the country, so we do as many local events as we can which are mostly Y12s. He's a little guy and will always be little and loves to fence, so this problem wont go away. So he needs to learn ways to deal with it that will certainly change as his ability changes.

If he scores a touch on anyone over 12, he's a happy camper...well, most of the time...

I think prefacing the question with his age and the dufus coach remark caused a diversion for some folks who may have immediately tossed me in the pushy parent bin. My mistake perhaps. I suspect the tone would have been a lot different if I left out his age.

And I do appreciate most of Mr Jacob's advice. I just think he needs to work on his delivery a bit. Perhaps he will mellow with age as does fine wine.

Slim

[jBirch]

Slim,

One other thing to consider is that your son's coach may not want to teach him a short game if he's likely to get taller. It may also be that your son has a tendency to lose badly (and by that I mean that he doesn't take any lessons learned from the bout and just wants to quit) and so needs to work on losing for a while in order to be successful later on. It could also be that the coach was doing what coaches of 10 year olds are supposed to do, namely encouraging your son to play fencing rather then work to be successful competing.

That said, a coach that has nothing in the way of a constructive answer is generally not a very good coach. Perhaps pressing him for more constructive advice would be fruitful?

Take it easy.

James.

[jBirch]

Slim,

Ok, now that I've had a chance to read this thread in its entirety, I've got some concrete advice fer ya.

The basic problem that your son is encountering is that the distance and tempo is different for taller fencers. Parry riposte against someone his own age and size and the distance is X and can be done in time Y (X+Y is the definition of tempo). Against someone larger it becomes X+Z and Y+Z. This is true for all of your son's actions including retreats, attacks, beats, etc... Ie// All the actions your son wants to do take longer and need to go farther. This is where some of the comments about letting him grow first, before getting involved in this occur.

The problem is that you need to retrain the responses against the bigger fencers. The training question is whether it is appropriate to spend time training for a specific problem when he is going grow out of that specific problem without the training or spend that time focusing on stuff that is going to matter when he gets big enough and knowledgable enough to handle them.

Now, specific things he can do are all around making up for the time and distance disadvantage he's got. Gain tempo with feints, beats, footwork and prise de fer actions (binds, croise, press, etc...). The term "gain tempo" means that because your son is slower (the same attack takes longer because he's not big enough to do it the fast way) and smaller that he needs roughly a full "turn" difference in order to make the hit. So for him, parry riposte needs to be parry, close distance, riposte, a two-tempo action.

Even worse, a two-tempo action in foil results in a loss of RoW so he has to make sure that he keeps his opponent at least a tempo behind. Very difficult for even seasoned fencers to do and usually frustratingly difficult for young fencers to even attempt as it takes phenomenal feel for distance and timing, general strength (one of the ways is to keep opposition which requires you to keep the opponent's blade physically away) and great athleticism.

The great fear from a training aspect is that fixing the smaller vs. taller problem will result in a number of bad habits that need to be untrained at a later date.

Hope this helps more then my last.

James.