Solid State Epee Tips - Any Interest?

[Robert Smith]

As mentioned in another post, I sell conductive thread through http://members.shaw.ca/ubik/thread/. One of the companies who's been buying it manufactures a plastic which, at rest, is an insulator, but under pressure becomes a conductor. It looks as if it could be tuned to respond sufficiently quickly and sharply and with enough precision to do what an epee tip does - completes a circuit when a weight of 750g is applied. There's things to work out, of course, but I see potential here for a [near] solid state epee tip, with no screws, no springs.

If it works out, would there be a market for it? If there's a market, it obviously wouldn't fit the existing FIE rules - all written to describe the existing mechanical arrangement of pressure spring, contact spring, etc. Is this worth pursuing, and if not, why not? Alternatively, if so, has anyone else been down this road already?

[Purple Fencer]

I could see a definite use for it....but how much pressure would be needed to the plastic to conduct? I'd hate to be using a contact tip like that and land JUST enough to make contact with the wires, but not to induce conductivity in the plastic.

[Prometheus]

Part of the problem in designing a solid state epée tip is that the tip must travel a specified distance before the circuit is closed. So I think, if nothing else, springs are going to be around for a while.

I think the idea is actually much more interesting for foil. The only problem there is that the foil circuit is an "normally closed" switch so you would actually need a plastic that becomes a resistor, with a fairly hyperbolic curve in the strain / resistance relationship inflecting at about 500g.

...I guess

[CvilleFencer]

I would definetley be interested, and I am sure many others would be as well. I think that it could be possible to get it through the FIE maze, but if you patent it, IIRC the FIE will not require it, but can still authorize it for use. I think it would fall into the same gray area that the Negrinni one wire screwless epee tips fall into. Not screws or contact spring, and only one wire, but it works, passes the weight and shim test, and has never been rejected at any tourney I have worked or heard off. I think it would be just an awesome idea, espcially if it works something close to what I envision in my mind. 100% solid state may not be feasable, since you would need to test travel and weight, but it could replace the cup and contact spring if you worked it right.

Probably the best thing to do would be to reduce one to working practice, IE make a mockup/demo and show it to one of the more progressive vendor/manufactuers like LP or Negrinni and try to sell them the idea, rather than try to make it and sell it yourself. Very cool, and very interesting!

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

I think it would fall into the same gray area that the Negrinni one wire screwless epee tips fall into. Not screws or contact spring, and only one wire, but it works, passes the weight and shim test, and has never been rejected at any tourney I have worked or heard off.

You mean Science Fiction. Negrini does not sell and has never sold one wire epee tips of any type. They have sold 'Single-Point' Epee wires. They actually have 2 wires and they are actually legal, where all others Epee tips are not technically legal, PROVIDED it is wired properly so the A line goes to the ring (M.31). How the Negrini tip works is it has a center post (B), similar to the top of a Foil wire without the brim. Then there is a ring (A), that the spring sits upon and is connected to the base of the tip similar to Foil. When the center post comes in contact with the post that completes the circuit between the TWO wires.

As been stated before, how will you test for travel. I have another few questions. Suppose it no longer will pass the 750 Gram weight. Can it be repaired? How will it tell when it contacts a grounded circuit? What will be the cost?

I wish you luck, but I see a long arduous task ahead.

[DangerMouse]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

You mean Science Fiction. Negrini does not sell and has never sold one wire epee tips of any type. They have sold 'Single-Point' Epee wires. They actually have 2 wires and they are actually legal, where all others Epee tips are not technically legal, PROVIDED it is wired properly so the A line goes to the ring (M.31). How the Negrini tip works is it has a center post (B), similar to the top of a Foil wire without the brim. Then there is a ring (A), that the spring sits upon and is connected to the base of the tip similar to Foil. When the center post comes in contact with the post that completes the circuit between the TWO wires.

As been stated before, how will you test for travel. I have another few questions. Suppose it no longer will pass the 750 Gram weight. Can it be repaired? How will it tell when it contacts a grounded circuit? What will be the cost?

I wish you luck, but I see a long arduous task ahead.

Having just set up a Negrini tip I have a couple questions. Why does it matter rather the ring is wired to A or B given that contact between the post and the center will connect A and B? Also, are there any legality issues with having both wires through the same piece of spagetti at the tip (protecting them from the barrel)? Negrini supplied the wires this way.

[Robert Smith]

Prometheus, DHCJr: I don't think tip travel would be an issue, would it? Isn't it only there to ensure adequate separation of contact spring and contacts?

Purple Fencer: No moving parts; the wires connect to opposite sides of the insulator/conductor. Apply adequate pressure, current passes. I suspect there'd need to be an electronic component to turn a specific current into an all-or-nothing signal, but that should sit at the box, and, if calibration were necessary - and I don't know if it would be - it would be applied there.

Prometheus: Ya, I'd love to see it work for foil. Wonder if it might be possible to do it inside out, with the tip constantly under pressure except when there's a hit. But that's heading back to springs again. Suggestions gratefully accepted..

DHCJr: How does it tell when it's in contact with a grounded circuit now? I'd hope it would function exactly the same. All I'm anticipating is replacing the balancing act with springs with another means of making a circuit. As to cost, it might be a little early to think about that. But how much of the cost of a regular tip goes into precision? There may be savings there, I don't know.

[DHCJr]

I will answer the previous 2 posts.

If they actually enforce M.31 would which wire to hook up to which wire. But if they actually did, all other tips would be illegal, since the A line does not go directly to the tip. So the simple answer, it doesn't.

As far as the single spagetti, check the last paragraph. First it requires both to be seperately covered, so you need 2 and the one you have is too big and they must go ALL the way to the connector.

On travel, why do you think they tried to change the foil tip. They want a force that is required to actually move, not just jar the tip.

As far as it knows about grounding everything is metal, which conducts. If it hits the guard the tip sends out 2 signals, one back on the A line and one through the opponents C line. The box interpret that as no touch. Would the plastic be conductive so the electricity could go through the C line of the opponent.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Robert Smith

One of the companies who's been buying it manufactures a plastic which, at rest, is an insulator, but under pressure becomes a conductor. It looks as if it could be tuned to respond sufficiently quickly and sharply and with enough precision to do what an epee tip does - completes a circuit when a weight of 750g is applied.

Does it require any directionality of force to make it work? You don't want the tip to go off if you slaped someone with the point only if the line of force is along the blade.

Sounds interesting though.

[The Armourer]

If this gets going I would expect a strong cash bid from grub the screw manufacturers to buy it out and bury it!!!

[noodle]

i'd definitely 100% be interested, but this thing would have to be brought up with the FIE who would have to chance the rules to make them legal (after thorough testing *cough*). you could make a killing off of these, i've already brought up the idea of piezoelectric buttons on tips instead of the mechanical setup in the past.

[DangerMouse]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

I will answer the previous 2 posts.
As far as the single spagetti, check the last paragraph. First it requires both to be seperately covered, so you need 2 and the one you have is too big and they must go ALL the way to the connector.

That last paragraph states:

Originally Posted by m.31

The two wires coming from the tip must be protected by two insulating sheaths, one for each wire, from the point where they enter the
guard right up to the two insulated connections on the plug socket. In no case may uninsulated wires extend beyond the plug connections
(cf. m.5, m.9).

So, since it is not specifically mentioned, it is legal to have a piece of spagetti over both wires at the tip where they enter the barrel. Correct?

[cowpaste]

There will also be a problem with durability I bet. The epee points will have be pretty strong to withstand repeated hits to the bellguard.

[smeric28]

i think it is definatly worth it. what you need to do is prototype one and get a national armor to look it over and find if it works. the submit it to the fie and usfa for certification. the bigest thing would be to meet weight test and the surface area requirments (the tip has to be 5mm radius or something i don't have my rule book handy)

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by DangerMouse

That last paragraph states:


So, since it is not specifically mentioned, it is legal to have a piece of spagetti over both wires at the tip where they enter the barrel. Correct?

Why would you do that? Look at the spagetti at how thick it is and then think how much it would stick out at the tip. Suppose your opponent hit that spagetti sticking up, instant hit and better yet you can not protest (T.68.g)

[BenTheEMOP]

If I am reading this correctly, twhat you are talking about is changing the weapon to a lump of conductive plastic at the end of a long metal stick. How springy is this plastic?

Not to be all wimpy about it, but it seems like this would hurt more than regular epee does. The current tip has some give when it hits, which absorbs some of the shock. This proposal would eliminate it.

It seems like dry weapons, which don't have any springs, sting a little more. On the other hand, it might be worth the risk so that I don't need to try to put in screws while being all wound up at a tournament.

[acaba]

Originally Posted by Robert Smith

Prometheus, DHCJr: I don't think tip travel would be an issue, would it? Isn't it only there to ensure adequate separation of contact spring and contacts?

No. The epee point must travel at least 1.0 mm without going off.

A foil point might be better to work on since there is (currently) no travel requirement for the point.

Check out rule m.19: (epee only)
4. The course or stroke of the pointe d’arrêt required to complete the circuit in the épée and thus cause the apparatus to register a touch, called the lighting stroke, must be greater than 1 mm. The further course which the pointe d’arrêt may travel must be less than 0.5 mm. (This requirement is just as essential as that for the lighting stroke.) To enable a check to be made on the strip, the total course or stroke of the point must be greater than 1.5 mm (cf. t.43).

[Dave]

But with a solid state tip existing travel measurements would be pointless. Better to have a minimum hit duration (I know that this isn't working in foil at the moment but once the foilists have got it working us epeeists can come and use their technology).

If this material is controlably pressure sensitive then all you would need is two wires going into a block of it on the end of your epee. anything else could be controlled on the box.

You could use a similar systerm for foil but it would require a complete rethink as to how foil electronics worked.

[Robert Smith]

Originally Posted by acaba

No. The epee point must travel at least 1.0 mm without going off.

A foil point might be better to work on since there is (currently) no travel requirement for the point.

Check out rule m.19: (epee only)
4. The course or stroke of the pointe d’arrêt required to complete the circuit in the épée and thus cause the apparatus to register a touch, called the lighting stroke, must be greater than 1 mm. The further course which the pointe d’arrêt may travel must be less than 0.5 mm. (This requirement is just as essential as that for the lighting stroke.) To enable a check to be made on the strip, the total course or stroke of the point must be greater than 1.5 mm (cf. t.43).

Yep, read that. But that's predicated entirely on the current arrangement of springs, surely. Remove the springs, and you no longer have a requirement for adequate separation between contact spring and contacts; the rule becomes redundant, like requiring blinders on the horse that pulls your now-horseless carriage.

[DHCJr]

The distance is not there that there be adequate distance. You could require 0.1mm distance would be enough for seperation. In fact one of the requirements that was passed by the FIE Congress was the use of a Foil tip that required 2mm of travel. This was not implemented, only because the requirements did not get sent to the manufacturers.

Having a tip that you can just hit with 750 grams of force and only move it 0.1mm will not fly. The rules are not there because of the requirement of the springs, the springs are there because of the requirement of the rules.

If you can get the 750 grams, the cost down, the grounding problem and the travel you would have something.