A good, working definition of "pastel?"

[achilleus]

The pictures given have no effect to the questions as the colors are on the leg. The ones on the jacket are illegal, even if they were considered light or pastel. See M.25.3, since the 'light' rule is only on the torso (I am using the French FIE rules) and they must be a solid color.

Yes they seem to ignored the rule for this competiton.

All the photos weren't from one competition. They were from various world cup competitions, and the uniforms were marked FIE approved. Much like the Uhlmann color block uniforms similar to what Cuomo was wearing...

[DHCJr]

Yes, and the Uniforms with 3 long stripes that have the FIE logo were NOT allowed at several world cups competitions. Just because rules are not followed, doesn't mean they are right.

[One and Only...]

You're overcomplicating the issue.

The real thing you need to be concerned with isn't the technical definition of a pastel, but rather what the judge perceives as pastel.

To be on the safe side, use a pink that is clearly recognizable as a light color. Anything that is iffy in the judge's mind might give you trouble, whether it is technically legal or not.

[Cipher]

In m.25 of the rulebook it says:

"Fencers’ clothing may be of different colors, but on the body it must be a single color, white or a light shade."

Now not only do you need a working definition of light, but also of body. You can take that to mean the entire body, down to the hands and feet or just the torso, excluding limbs and head. If the latter is the case, then the whole point is moot in foil and sabre since the "body" or "torso" is entirely covered by a lame. For epee, I'm not sure... I guess that would mean that any color is open for breeches and the arms of the jacket, but the "torso" would then have to have a "light" color. Since the whole body is a target in epee, it kind of goes against the intent of the rule though. Not that it really even matters now that everything is electric.

You also have to take into account that regardless of whether or not you may be technically right, you're going to run up against a traditionalist that isn't going to be happy with anything but white.

I'm not even going to get in on the "light" part of the discussion. That term is way too subjective for my liking.

[DHCJr]

The English translation is suspect. I would translate the French rulebook as either Trunk or Torso. You said it would not be a problem in Foil and Epee. That is not entirely true. How many WHITE lames do you have? Then look at what is below the lame at the back and the lower part of the Sabre lame.

I just LOVE the clear, consistent, non-contradictory, concise rules of fencing.

One of my favorites is the first part of M.13.

[Victor]

500 was just a number I pulled out of my butt as an example. ...

The last thing we need is a ref pulling anything out of his butt.

[Victor]

Thanks for the discussion. I brought up the question (as ill-formed as it might be) because it seems like a natural evolution from what's already happening. Fencers are playing with the colors in their masks, socks, shoes and gloves because they are pretty clear about what the rules allow. Likewise, patches are clearly defined as well (I think). The main body uniform color is just a step away.

[Cipher]

I would say that as far as electric is concerned, why not give quite a bit of discretion to the competitors. It's not like refs really need to see where the blade hits, that's what the machines are for. Hell, having exceptionally colorful gloves, or at least a glove of a different color than the rest of the uniform might actually help in determining some of those right of way calls.

As far as dry is concerned, I'd say stick to the light colors to facilitate refs having a decent contrast between blade/tip and target area.

[Victor]

Anyone here ever had to match up a paint chip for a house remodeling job? I just remembered the last time we wanted a can of a particular color, the Home Despot clerk used a nifty machine that analyzed the sample into its component colors to make the mix match. There's gotta be something simple like that available on the market to test for how much white (or lightness) comprises a jacket color.

[sabreur]

Hope that you are not dealing with a color blind judge.

Since you've chosen to comment on one of my particular genetic defects, I will tell you that determining whether something is pastel or not is a matter of judging intensity or shade, not hue. Most color-blind people actually judge intensity or shade BETTER than non-color-blind people.

MR

[KD5MDK]

Since you've chosen to comment on one of my particular genetic defects, I will tell you that determining whether something is pastel or not is a matter of judging intensity or shade, not hue. Most color-blind people actually judge intensity or shade BETTER than non-color-blind people.

MR

When I pass my referee's test, a lot of people will begin dealing with a colorblind judge.


Is there a seperate rule on colored lames? I've seen some striking ones. (And white ones, for whoever brought it up upthread)

[kalivor]

The metric is simple, really ... it's the Inq test!

That is, the uniform in question is presented to Inq for inspection. His reaction is measured (volume of sweat, amounts of bile produced, and the general volume at which he registers his disgust). Each of these measurements is awarded a number of points, and once a uniform reaches a certain point threshold, the uniform is too far removed from white to be considered pastel.

Of course, the exact point awards and threshold would need to be determined via extensive testing ...

[Maeve_Mari]

And anything beyond stank and dingy will be promptly rejected by our community's incommodious curmudgeon

[Capt. Slo-mo]

I was going to suggest that we use Inquartata as the definitive example of pastel. How so, you ask?

Simple. We dispatch a digital photographer to his house. A series of carefully selected tye-died uniforms and painted masks are presented for his inspection. When the choleric upswelling on Inq's face has reached near-stroke proportions, the photographer snaps a quick picture.

This picture is then loaded into a vectorscope with chromatic scanning. Any suspect uniform is compared against the bright, flaming red control color in the vectorscope. If it is 65% or less chromatically intense, the color passes as pastel.

Glad I could be of service.

[Larrison]

Hmm.. if you really wanted to identify specific "pastel" colors, do what the professional printing industry does. All colors printed are matched using the Pantone Matching System (PMS). Specific colors and the composition of that color are specified, which is available down to the specific combination of inks to produce that color, or other methods of reproducing it. They do this in the printing industry to ensure that reproduction of colors is exact the same anywhere in the industry or in any publication.

A quick search shows that Pantone identifies 126 pastel colors, and for $59 at Pantone.com you can get a set of the formulas to reproduce these, plus a book of exact matches to these colors. (These look like the book of color chips you get at a paint store, but only for the 126 pastel colors).

Let the FIE just specificy what pastel colors are acceptable through the Pantone system, and you will have an exact definition of the color that is exactly reproducible. Judging the color can be done through a visual matching against the color chips (such as by a judge at a tournament), or by reference to a manufacturer who made the clothes certifying he matched to an exact Pantone color to ensure compliance. In doubt, you can scan a colored fabric into the computer, and many desktop publishing packages allow you to identify the color in Pantone reference. There's also about a $250-300 handheld spectro-colorimeter device that you can put on the cloth, and will give you the exact pantone color match.

There.. is that an appropriately nerdish answer?

[foilz]

D+F+P=H is correct. Pastel is pastel if there's more white in the color than color.

If you need words, Webster's says "a soft, pale shade of any color."

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Hmm.. if you really wanted to identify specific "pastel" colors, do what the professional printing industry does. All colors printed are matched using the Pantone Matching System (PMS).

As has been touched upon before, we will just have to wait for a PMS reaction in Inq!



Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[downunder]

Let the FIE just specificy what pastel colors are acceptable through the Pantone system, and you will have an exact definition of the color that is exactly reproducible.

pastel is not an FIE term


The official translation is "light", as previously stated, not that it makes it clearer